GREATEST HITS - BURNOUT - with Laura Nguyen

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:08  

Welcome to the executive coach for moms podcast where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy, while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host Leanna Laskey McGrath, former tech exec turned full time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic, and certified executive coach. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:31  

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the show. And welcome to the second episode of The Greatest Hits summer series. I am having so much fun with this because I'm listening back to some older episodes that I did. As I've said before, I love re listening to things at different points throughout my life and noticing what stands out to me that's different from last time, because when I listened to the intro that I did for this episode, and then I listened to the episode, very different things stood out to me in the episode, so so like, my intro is completely different than it was last time. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:10  

So the one I'm sharing today is the Laura Nguyen episode on burnout. And I chose this one for a variety of reasons. But one of them being that I've actually talked to a lot of people recently who are feeling very burnt out in their careers. And so I thought, Hmm, seems like it'd be a good time to reshare this episode and bring it back to the top of everyone's minds, especially if you're feeling that burnout. Laura shares her story about how she transitioned to motherhood, she is a marketing executive, and she and I both have daughter the same age around five. And we talked about kind of that transition to motherhood and the challenges of that for a workaholic, like Laura, who loved working all the time, and weekends before she had a baby. And then we got into the COVID parenting and just how challenging that was for all of us. And a couple of things I noticed, one was about the front that we put on that we have it all together. And we assume that it's easier for everybody else. It's like we have to wear this armor around showing everyone that we can do it and we're capable. But really, we feel like we're crumbling inside. And then it creates this feeling of that we're a fraud or creates like impostor syndrome, because we're trying to pretend like we're better at it than we actually are. And so we kind of show the good stuff to the world. And then we feel like we're hiding something because nobody sees the tough times and the tough parts and the human side of us that we all have, because life is 50/50. And we're always going to have good times and bad times. But we talked about how that phenomenon, that thing that we all do, it leads to a lot of loneliness, where we believe that we're the only ones who are struggling. And we're the only ones who aren't doing it as well as everybody else. But it's like all of us have that belief in a way. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:16  

Another thing that she talked about was this wake up call that she had, you'll hear it in the episode, but she had a co worker who actually ended up passing away from cancer. And it was very unexpected. And it kind of gave her that Wake Up Call of like, wait a minute, what am I doing here? Why am I spending my time in this way, you know, in my one and only precious life? And I have actually heard from people who listen to that episode, who said that was a real wake up call for them about hearing someone who is young, with young children, passing away from cancer. And it really just puts things into perspective. So I love how Laura tells that story. And if you are feeling really burnt out and you're feeling like, why am I doing this, I think it'd be interesting to hear that perspective. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  3:54  

And then the other thing I thought was interesting to point out that we talked a little bit about is this idea of a sunk cost fallacy. It's so interesting how we as humans believe I put my time in, right like whether it's a relationship or a job or career project, we say I spent 20 years in this career. And now I want to change careers. But I feel like I'm throwing it all away. And it's so interesting, because so many of us will stay where we are because of decisions we made in the past and desires that we had in the past. And now here we are in the present moment. And we don't want the thing that we wanted in the past, but we're staying stuck to it. Because we have this fallacy. It's a thought error where we believe that because we put all this time in we should continue. But the reality is, is that that time is gone no matter what and the time that we have is from here and forward. And so we can decide what we want to do with our time here and forward. And it has nothing to do with how we spent our time in the past, or it doesn't have to,  we can decide how we want to spend that time. And if we don't want to spend it in the way we have been spending it, there's absolutely nothing wrong with saying, Actually, I want to make a change, I want to do things differently. Now, because I'm a different person, I have changed and evolved as we all do. And I'm no longer interested in living in this way that I have been living or spending my time doing the things that I have been doing. So I just think that all of us can benefit from hearing more about that sunk cost fallacy, and it being a fallacy and not staying tied to things from our past, not taking them into our future, if they're no longer serving us, or if we're no longer enjoying them. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  5:39  

So that is what stood out to me in this episode. But there were also lots of other takeaways. These were just the things that were resonated with me most today. So I would love to hear what resonates for you. And if you listened to this episode before, and you listen to it again, this time, I would really love to hear what felt different for you. If you notice anything that really stuck out this time that that you're like, oh my gosh, I don't even remember hearing that last time. So thank you so much for being here. Enjoy this episode. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  6:10  

I have a very special guest who I met on LinkedIn. I love it when I meet people in random places on the internet. And so I saw some of Laura's content a while back and I was like oh my gosh, we have to talk it seems like we have some similar stories of similar experiences. And so we chatted and it was like we had known each other for years and so I'm so excited to talk today and to bring Laura Nguyen on the podcast. She is a former exec like myself, and she experienced burnout in her job. And so I would love to, for her to share her story today about kind of that path and what thought she was having along that path and what she was experiencing. And then also, it's been about a year since she decided to transition out of her executive role. And so I want to hear all about what it's been like this since then. So Laura, thank you so much for joining me today. 

Laura Nguyen  

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. And I love making friends on the internet as well. So, so thank you for being my new friend. I so appreciated taking the time and chatting with you and getting to know you a bit better as well. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah, likewise. So Laura, can you just kind of introduce yourself and just tell everybody a little bit about you and who you are and where you're from and your background a little bit?

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, happy to happy to. Hello, everyone. I'm Laura Nguyen. So I've spent the last 20 years in marketing through a different variety of roles. I started my career on the agency side, and then went on the brand side. And my really, you know, at the end of the day, what I love to do is generate growth for organizations. And that's been my passion point. So I've been a performance marketer for the duration of my career. And I've loved that. I live in Des Moines, Iowa, with my wife and my kids. And we, you know, enjoy it here. And it's been, it's been a lot of fun.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Awesome. And so you have been in marketing for a long time. Tell me about that experience.

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, for sure. I have loved marketing. So actually started my career. When I graduated from college, I was pre law. And I was planning on going to law school. So I graduated in December, and was planning on starting law school in the fall. But I started at a marketing communications firm and absolutely fell in love, like the second I walked through the door. And that's really where my career started. So one of the things that I really loved about marketing and marketing communications was the ability to, to share a story and really understand who our audiences were. And for me, one of the things that really was compelling, especially on the marketing side was the performance based marketing aspect. So I love data, and I love numbers. And I love trying to dissect all of the analytics and and that just sparked for me, just that scientist brain of how do I continue to solve problems, and continue to identify ways to grow? You know, I think, at the beginning of my career, you know, I was spending a lot of time doing communications work. And then in the evenings, I was spending a lot of time doing digital work. So the marketing aspect for me, I'm really focused on digital marketing. And what I loved about digital was the data component was the ability to test and learn really quickly. And the ability to just continue, it's always evolving, right? So like, I'm always learning something new. And so it really pulled on, you know, that core value for me. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

And we both have a child of similar age. Right. So you had a child about four ish years ago. So what was that transition? Like for you whenever you went from being all in on the exact marketing brand? And then now trying to balance that with mom? 

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, that's, that's a great question. I think, being a parent, it adds right, a new title and a new job description, to to our lives. And so I think for me, I had historically up until I had her I had been working at least six days a week. And that was always my mode, I'd always worked, you know, Monday through Friday, I would take a break, Saturday would be my off day, and Sunday I'd go back into the office for at least a half day. And so that was just how I operated. And I loved work. Like I loved that gratification from work in a way like it was a drug as an addiction for me, where I loved building things, and I loved being able to have feeling like progress was happening. And so I think having Ellis just kind of shifted so much of that for me a few things. One would be I couldn't work like that anymore. Yeah, like it just it just wasn't going to happen. And I I tried. I didn't try. It didn't work out well. 

Laura Nguyen  

And I think the other piece for me, like especially when I got back from maternity leave, she was not an easy eater. So like she would never take a bottle. And that was crazy hard because I would like at first when I dropped her off at daycare, they would try to like feed her through like a syringe, right or like the spoon and try to make sure she was getting something. But then when I picked her up, she just looked like wiped out at the end of the day. And so I was like okay, well how am I going to make this work? So I would drive in the middle of the day. You I just like blockout times to run today care and nurse her and then come back to work. Well, it was pretty brutal, because I was just trying to find the balance right between driving 15 minutes to 15 minutes back, you basically are spending, say your quote unquote lunch break, and doing what you need to do for your family and for your kid. But that also was like, I never took lunch before. So that was just, you know, the things that the things that had to shift for my schedule, and for my life dramatically changed. But it also shifted my priorities dramatically, as well. And just the desire, right to like, how do you create a better world for these kids? It just kind of came to light so much faster for me. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah, yeah, that resonates. My daughter also did not take a bottle, and I was working remotely. This was even pre pandemic, my company headquarters was in Montreal, and I was in Dallas, Texas. And so I had to take breaks to breastfeed. And I remember thinking, Oh, my gosh, what would I do if she was in daycare? Like, what would I do if I was in an office? And it sounds like you've lived that?

Laura Nguyen  

So first, thank you, for I hadn't met other people who had the same challenge. So thanks for sharing that. It makes me feel way better, even though it's been, you know, four years. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. 

Laura Nguyen  

But I think there's a psychological toll, a physical toll, a mental health toll, right, that kind of comes with all of it. And we're, you know, parents with young kids, like, our sleep schedules are out of whack anyways, like we're barely getting enough sleep anyways. And so I think that kind of adds to the stress, and the worry. And honestly, the physical reality of you know, how you're thinking and how your brain functions.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah, well, and so you have this stress and worry about, I've got to get my baby fed. I mean, literally, literally, it depends on me for life. And also, what was it like for you at work? Now you're taking lunch breaks that you have ever taken before? You can't work six days a week anymore? And you know, you said you were working during the day and in the evening? So like, what was that like for you in terms of that transformation? Going from full on workaholic to now trying to balance this with mom?

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, a few things come to mind. One is just the feeling of drowning, right? Like you just there's just the endless amount of work and pressure, because I think you all we also as women and executive women, one of the key things we got here, because we worked hard, and they're almost as a point of like, how do we continue to prove that say having a baby doesn't impact our ability to be hard workers? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Right. 

Laura Nguyen  

So there was a story or narrative in my mind of how do I continue to do that in a way that's going to be sustainable for me. But it's also not going to impact the optics organizationally, of me. I think what shifted right is like, for when you and I had our kids, it was 2019, I put my daughter back in daycare. And I had six months before really the pandemic started to surge. And so then, you know, then she was home full time. And so I think the biggest shift was just as you start to get into a routine and rhythm, everything shifts again, right, and the whole world shifted at that point. And for those of us we didn't have, you know, we took her out of daycare, so we didn't have care for her. So we're trying to juggle i, we have an 11 year old as well. And so my stepdaughter was trying to do school at the same time. So we were trying to help her with online schooling. And we were trying to take care of a not even one year old at the time. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. 

Laura Nguyen  

And so the added stress happened when, when I got back from maternity leave, my team started to leave. That was the beginning for me of some of the challenges. So we had some really high turnover as soon as I returned. And then with the pandemic, we had increased turnover, right. And then we also were managing remote at that point, managing remote teams trying to rebuild a team remotely for the first time, and then trying to onboard people that were completely remote. And so I think there was just an added layer of some of the stress of how do we continue to perform, how does my marketing team continue to perform? And at the same time, recognizing that we're bare bones, you know, we went from, let's say, a team of 12, to essentially a team of four. And how do we continue to rebuild that team?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah, and I think so many of us can relate to that. I know, we did layoffs during the pandemic, right, right at the beginning, because we didn't know what was going to happen. And we didn't want to overspend and then fortunately, we had already been managing teams remotely, but I know I mean, it's very different. I have managed teams on site and remotely and it's different strategies and different things you have to consider and opportunities and strategies for engagement. Right? It's very different. And so trying to switch all of that at one time, while also transitioning to motherhood? That's a lot.

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, you're right. And it was, it was a lot. You know, I knew at that time, I was just like, I gotta keep going. Yeah, right. And just like most of we just feel like we're going to dig deep. We're going to figure out how to get through this. And we're just going to keep going. And so, you know, I think that was the piece of just trying to understand how do you keep the wheels right on the bus rolling, while you're, you know, flying 100 miles an hour essentially, of trying to, and all the dynamics are changing externally. So there's really a lack of control, which dramatically impacts right how you as a person operate. And that's really where I was at as well.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

I think that change, or perceived change in control, or that feeling of lack of control, I think that was probably hard for so many of us, because there were external things that were changing. And as high achieving ambitious women who have, you know, worked really hard and believe that, like, our destiny is in our hands, and have always proven that to be true, right? That we can get things done and that we can do anything, we set our minds to that kind of thing. And then suddenly, we have a baby, which takes so much control out of our hands, right? Because there's another human who, you know, as much as we would love to be able to make everything go perfectly and make sure that they drink from a bottle and that they sleep the times that we want them to sleep and whatever, right that is not in our control, coupled that with what was going on in the world at that time. Yeah, that that total loss of control for people who are used to feeling like at least having the illusion that we are in control.

Laura Nguyen  

100% 100%. And I think, you know, when there's aspects of our life, we feel like we can control right, at least there's one thing we can hold on to, then other things that start to pop up makes, you know, it's manageable. But When Everything Feels like we're out of control, and yet externally, it's a bit performative, right? We're trying to show we've got our shit together, and we can do it. And don't worry, you know, I'll figure it out. All of these things that just starts to erode within you.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know about you. But I think because we were all doing that. And for me, it was like, the more I feel like I'm failing at home, and the more I feel like everything's falling apart, the better front I have to put on and like harder I have to work at that. And so it's like, we were all doing that. And we weren't just saying like, this is so freaking hard for me. Is it hard for you? Because we were just like, Let's go like put your head down. Go. Right. We were just doing it the way that we knew how to do it as workaholics, right. And we were just like, put your head down and just go and then we were all assuming that it was so much easier for everybody else, right? And it was like, why is it so hard for me? How can anybody else be doing this? And the reality is, the more women I talked to, nobody was doing it well, and nobody was feeling good about it. And it was a really hard time, even without the pandemic. It is really hard having young children and trying to balance that with being a full time working parent.

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, agreed. And I think to the shifts, like we were talking about, which is like there was an internal shift of us being high achieving, but then there's also the external piece of when we look around, and everyone else still has it together. And they feel like they were able to do it. So why can't I? And I think that was for me one of the challenges of like, having a sense of such loneliness in all of it right of like, Are there were there work friends, I can actually talk to about it right or, and if that was the path they chose, is that the path I wanted for myself. And I think that kind of deep self inquiry started to happen when I recognized you know, what felt authentic to me, was not the life that I was living. And it wasn't in this persona, this mask that I was wearing. Like I had had enough of it right of like, it just it had served me and maybe not served me in some ways, but it had served me and I needed to put it down for a while. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah, well, I think that's the realization a lot of a lot of women came to and, and come to is like, I'm working so much harder just to make it look like I'm look like I've got it together. So Hmm. Like, is this what I want my life to be? Is this at the end of my life, do I want to look back and say like, this is how I chose to spend this one precious life 

Laura Nguyen  

100% Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. But you made it through about three years it sounds like since you had the baby and then decided to leave. So what was the rest of that like, you know, coming out of the pandemic and would did it just continue to get worse, did it get better and worse and better what what was that journey like? 

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, so it was definitely it was definitely a roller coaster because there would be days where I would be like, I can't, I just, I can't anymore. And I need something else. And then there were days where I was like, this is fun. And I can figure out how to do this again. And I miss the magic of my team and what that looks like, and, and then there's also the responsibility right of your team. Like I, I grew that team, that was my team. And those are my people and walking away from them felt really unfair, right? Felt selfish, in a way. So I continued, right, we just continue to dig deep and keep going and keep going and work on find projects that can spark us. And then I had someone on my team who reported to me and she was diagnosed with cancer. And when I remember the call she had, she was like, this was my diagnosis, you know, it's work, you can fight it, and we're going to continue to fight it. And I was like, Okay, I'm with you. Like, let's figure out how to make this work and how I can support you through your journey. Whatever I can do, like if you've got, if you're feeling good, go play with the kids, whatever you need to do, what will make it work for you, if you want to take leave, let's make that happen. And so it was probably about 16 months or so. And then she decided, Okay, I'm ready to take a medical leave. And in that time, I had seen just the toll it took and she has young kids like you and I have so a kindergartener and a three year old. And so, you know, relatively close in age, and similar experience, we would, you know, sit and talk about our kids and all the fun things. And the joys of the joys of daycare and all that. And then she took her leave in would have to probably was around May. And then we got a call from her husband, in would have been early July, saying that she had passed. And for me, that pretty much shifted everything. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. 

Laura Nguyen  

I think that moment, I remember that phone call. And I was like, to your point, like, what are we doing here? And is this what I want to do? And if I only had, say, 16 to 18 months, is this. What I want to do spend my time doing? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. So it sounds like that was a pretty clear, No, for you? 

Laura Nguyen  

Yes. Yes. Definitely a pretty clear, no, I think I spent, I had had an executive coach, a therapist and a life coach at the time. So I had a team of people helping me through honestly the last few years, and supporting me through my journey.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

which is so needed. I wish that for everyone.

Laura Nguyen  

Yes, yes, it was very helpful. And I remember, you know, when I talked to each of them about this news, because it was essentially made me pause everything right. But then again, as an overachiever, we just keep going. Like, we just I just kept going but inside, I felt like all the numbness just like turned on. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. 

Laura Nguyen  

And so I remember thinking about how am I going to help my team? How do I help build resiliency for my team? How do I help manage their emotions? You know, you you shift everything externally? How do you support? And how do you support, you know, the channel that she owned as well? How do you do all of those things and continue to keep the wheels running?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

I don't know about you, but I feel like as high achievers, it's like, we just get into, you talked about like feeling numb inside, it's kind of like, that's almost our defense mechanism. Like, we don't have to feel it, we're just going to focus on stuff like doing the things and supporting everyone else around us. And a lot of times, that is prioritized way higher than actually supporting ourselves, right? And like, feeling the feelings that we're having, but it's so much easier just to keep going. Not easier, but it's just, it's just the way we do it. It's just the way that we know, right?

Laura Nguyen  

So so true. And listen, like I'm an Enneagram one and an INTJ like feeling is like not on the list like I shove that down and so I think for me, like going through this process was you know, it also brings up you know, my my grandmother passed away when my mom was a teenager during the Vietnam War and she like right at the end of the conflict and then my mom you know, basically had to get on a boat and leave and did not get to like mourn that and so I think there's definitely a you know, generational trauma component that comes to it when we think about losing people really young because that was a that was a story that I heard throughout my entire life. And so all of that started getting unpacked right during during all of this and mortality becomes so real but to your point like I just kept digging deep and trying to figure out what to do and it it just, I think at a point you know, it kind of just that was my tap on the shoulder of saying enough is enough like You got to stop pretending. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. So what did it look like from there? 

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah. So, you know, I had worked with a financial planner for years before just helping me kind of manage my finances and everything and and I called her and said, Hey, we got to figure out a plan, like, what am I going to do? How do we make this work? I need to take some time off. What does that look like? And so, you know, we put together a plan. And at the end of the day, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna give it another, let's say six months to a year. I'm gonna try to make it 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Why? 

Laura Nguyen  

I think honestly, I wasn't ready to give up. To be totally honest. Like, I was like, I gotta figure out, like, give me enough time to transition. And it was just me self rationalizing.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah, but it's so interesting that you equated it with giving up

Laura Nguyen  

for sure. For sure. Yeah, I did. I felt like I'm not like I wasn't I'm not done. I'm not done yet. And the answer really is like, When are you ever done? Right? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. And I guess it's like, did you feel like you should be able to do it, and you couldn't? When we say like, we give up? It's like, Man, I tried so hard, and I just couldn't do it. Was that the feeling?

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, I mean, I think there was an aspect of, you know, I had started doubting myself in the journey, right, when, even though we would have record days, I felt like I couldn't move fast enough, or I wasn't thinking clear enough, or I wasn't able to support my team enough, you know. And so there's this whole, the word I keep using is enough, right? And it's this whole component of how do I continue to be this achiever? How do I get my gold star at the end of the day? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. And continuously feel like I'm not enough. 

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah. So I think for me, that kind of to your point around, like, the idea of giving up was such a barrier to me, because giving up means that I failed. And as an achiever, we don't fail. Like, right. And here's the truth is like, I have, you know, this is the longest job I had been in. But it wasn't my first gig. And it definitely won't be my last. And, you know, I think there was an aspect of like, okay, there's a sunk cost fallacy here, right?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. So many of us have that. Yeah. I mean, we look at like work relationships, marriages, I put so much into this. And if I walk away now, it's all wasted. And I fallacy for sure. Yeah.

Laura Nguyen  

Yes, indeed, indeed. And so we went on vacation. That was November, right. So we went on vacation for Thanksgiving. And that was the first time in my entire career, I travel without a laptop. And I turned my phone off, and I left it in my luggage. And it felt really frickin good. Like, it felt really great to not travel with a laptop. But even if I had a weekend trips, I traveled with a laptop that's on me, right? At the end of the day. No one asked me to travel with a laptop, but I did. I came back. And while we were there, my you know, my wife and I had talked and she was like, what are you waiting for? your same response. Like, you got to figure out something else, you have to do it for yourself. And so I came back, I think probably that Monday, and I resigned. And I said, I can't do it anymore. I will share what unfolded from there was such a testament to honestly the company that I was at which, you know, the leadership within the organization, you know, our CEO and our head of HR were just amazing people. And they called me and they said, Hey, like, what if we just went on a break, instead of a break up? Like, what if you took leave for you know, 12 weeks and tried to figure out, like you clearly need to reset? And so what if you took that time, and if you don't want to come back to your role, we're gonna backfill it and figure out how we can help support you. And so they were very kind. And at least offering that right where I had planned on just saying, See you later. And so I took, you know, a leave of absence. And I embarked on my journey of trying to figure out what that looked like. I mean, I will say it was an unpaid leave of absence. But still,

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

The company was great, but maybe...

Laura Nguyen  

I was gonna leave. So it is, you know, at the end of the day, I knew I knew the end was, but you know, it was I had to figure out what was right.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. Well, I think what's so interesting is it sounds like so, July, whenever your coworker passed, it sounds like it was like very clear to you. And then you were like, second guessing, and, you know, kind of like, I know what I need to do, and I'm not quite ready to do it. I went through that too. You know, I was like, I know what his values aligned here for me like I know what I want to do and what I need to do But but what's everyone gonna think? And am I going to be a bad feminist? And how am I going to tell my boss? And am I going to let down my team? And who else am I letting down? And how can I possibly walk away from an executive role when so many women have worked so hard for me to have, you know, to even have that opportunity? And what about my daughter, I want her to have a good role model and you know, so many things to unpack with my coach and therapist. And so I think it's like, interesting, because I think as women, we're so socialized to second guess ourselves, and to not just trust our instincts, right, because like, like, we knew, we knew what we needed to do. And I don't know, for me, at least, there was a lot to unpack before I could. And I also, you know, met with my financial advisor, we, you know, all those steps to get there. But it took me quite some time as well, probably around six months, actually. But until I gave my notice, but it did take some time to just like, be able to do the thing that I knew I needed to do. And I think that's really interesting that that was the same for you.

Laura Nguyen  

So like you and I worked with our financial planners, right, or financial advisors. And I think there's the logistical components of trying to figure out how to dress. But I think that's actually the easy part. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Oh, yeah.

Laura Nguyen  

The hard part is unpacking all the inner crap, right? Yeah, all of the inner critic in my inner critic is loud. I think there's a piano, I joke, there was a panel of inner critics in my head. So that was loud to your point, like, What will people think? Well, they think I'm a failure, right? Well, they will they judge me for making this move. Like, I'm not a feelings person. So this is essentially like I'm taking time off to, like, recharge myself and, and recalibrate my mental health, right? And so it's all of these things that it's like, it's what will people think, what will my family think? I think that was the other piece, too, you know, my family, you know, they like I had shared like they're, you know, they're Vietnamese refugees. And they came here, and the narrative we had heard growing up was like, how do we create a better life, we want you to be successful. And this idea of success was very specific, you know, specific, yet very vague, meaning like, we want you to be happy, right? We want you to be happy and successful. But there's not really like, how do you unpack all of those pieces? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Sure. 

Laura Nguyen  

So to your point, I think it takes time to work through the inner dialogue, and those inner critics and all of the questions, and I don't know about how it was for you. But when I made the decision, and made the announcement that I was leaving, what I overwhelmingly heard was, this was such an act of bravery. You were so courageous, right, all of these things. And I think at the time for me, I didn't see it as an act of bravery or courage. I saw it as I have no other option at this point. Like I have to do this. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. 

Laura Nguyen  

How was it for you?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

It was a little bit different for me, because I don't think that I I don't attribute my leaving to burnout. I attribute it to like making a decision that was aligned with my values. I was feeling burnt out. Yes. And that was certainly a factor. But it wasn't the reason it was more like I had kind of always had a plan in my head. That was why I did a tech startup when I was young and sold it to have that option available to me to take some time off when my children are no child was young. My mom didn't work when I was growing up. She was a full time mom. And so I had kind of always had that as an option. In my head. It was more of like an A realizing that that was what I wanted to do for the time being. So I left with my daughter just before she turned two. But yeah, so it was a I did not feel like I was giving up. Personally, I don't know that I felt it was brave. But I just felt like it was what I needed to do. And it was just like, This is what's right. And I feel very strong and confident in like, this is the right decision for me and for our family. And it's not right for everybody. And I don't hope that every woman quits their job to you know, spend time with their kids, if that's not what they want, but I do want that to be available, you know, as an available option to everybody. So. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah, but I did, I had actually, some of my employees that did the same thing. Like the people that I had hired, made those same decisions and they kind of you know, reached out to me later and said, Thank you so much that set an example for me or kind of like, allowed me to believe it was a possibility for me and that's actually what I want. And so that was really interesting the kind of ripple effects of that because I of course in my head was like this is going to be so terrible for all these people that I hired. You know, I had built my team as well. And I what am I leaving them with and what are they going to do? You know, we like build ourselves up as like the hero in their story, like they can't live without sorry. But they were all okay. And also, were kind of inspired by it. And I don't know what I expected, but I hadn't expected that reaction of like, Wow, you're so brave. Wow, you're inspiring and inspiring me to be able to live the kind of life that I want to live.

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, I love that story for you of like, you started with your core values, because you were so clear, you know, probably very early on, and then you created a plan to action against it, which I think is beautiful. It's like, you know, very, very overachiever of you, good job. I think one of the interesting things that you had shared is like, I feel like I had to try to figure out what my values were, you know, like, you were so clear on it. And for me, I had struggled with that. And I had kind of focused more on how do I continue to perform and performing and achieving was my value. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. 

Laura Nguyen  

But that isn't really a value. Not not really right, like, down. And so I had to go through, like deep exercises myself of like, like, what's my purpose? What am I here for? What do I care about? What do I want to leave as a lasting mark on this world, if I can, I don't think I had shared on LinkedIn before. But like, one of the things that I did was, so when it would have been October of 2020. So this is like, in the midst of everything. I was like, I was desperate to try to figure out what to do. And I always created like a one, a three, a five and a 10 year plan every year I like would do this plan. Right. And I had, you know, having Ellis like having my daughter just changed everything. I had a really hard time. So this is when she was six months old, I had a really hard time of trying to figure out well what's the future? What is that? What is my 135 and 10 year plan after this, aside from being a mom, right, like taking care of her and, and helping her grow into the best person she could be. 

Laura Nguyen  

And so what I ended up doing was I there was a hotel down the street, I locked myself in that hotel for two nights. So like I checked in on Friday, right? Checked out on Sunday. And I basically whiteboarded and brainstormed. What do I want my 1 3 5 and 10 year plan to be? What does that look like? And I just spent three days of trying to figure out what that would be. And honestly, I came up with nothing. Like I could not figure it was nothing new. I had all of these post it notes all over this wall in this hotel room. Yeah, in all different colors. And nothing was new to me. Like there was no aha moment of I figured it out. This is what I'm gonna do next interesting. I was just blocked, you know? And that's where I was like, Alright, I gotta figure out that was for me the moment of, you know, it actually wasn't six months. I think in the back of my mind, it was much longer than that. I'm like, I gotta figure out what that's going to be for me, that's going to make me feel good. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. I mean, because that's data in itself that that there was no aha moment. So like, what did that tell you?

Laura Nguyen  

So I had felt it already. But one of the big things that I kind of talk about is like, Okay, I lost my mojo, like the things that I could be creative about what I could solve for, I couldn't solve for in this moment. So I need to do something different. And so I started meeting with other people, like entrepreneurs, and, you know, friends who had done different things, and friends who were CMOS, and like, I started meeting with a ton of different people started finding other coaches. And, you know, I think that's where I was like, Okay, how do I do your point, get more data? How do I do discovery and try to figure out how to solve for this. Yeah. And so that's, that was kind of the early path of me identifying, okay, well, this is a problem, I need to figure out how to solve for it. And then I got to that point in, you know, November of 22, where I was like, Okay, I can't solve for it while doing what I'm doing. I've got to figure out another way. Because I'm, you know, the impact of burnout for me was, I just couldn't be creative in that moment. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. What's interesting, October 2020, is when I gave my notice. And just a note, you said about, like, leading with values. And I did, but that took time to figure out too, I just started the story partway through. So I in May, I had worked with a coach, that was when I like, met with a coach and met with financial advisor just to like, get everything figured out in terms of options. And then what I realized was my number one value is freedom. And so if I want to be values align, and freedom is the huge value of mine, like just the life I was living, it was directly in conflict with that value. And so like I wanted freedom and how I spent my days I wanted to freedom and how I raised my child, how I spent time with her that kind of thing. And so That along with other values, but that kind of helped it make it very clear. 

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

For me. So now November 2022. you've gotten back from this trip, you've decided to give you notice your company's like, no, let's just be on a break. And you decided to take a break for three months. So what does that look like? And where do you go from there? 

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah. So So for me, I had to figure out like, how do I at all the research is really around how to prevent burnout. And I was like, Well, I'm really deep in this. So I gotta figure out, not how to prevent it. We are long past that. And so I was I did all this research, I was like, alright, what am I going to do? And really, what I was trying to figure out is like, how do I change this hole? Get my mojo back, right? How do I change my brain? How do I figure out how to kick this right in a different way? And that question really became how do I change how my brain works? And so I went on this path of all right, I'm gonna do a month of play, I'm gonna do a month of pause, and a month of plan. That's my three months. And that's what I'm gonna do, I need to figure out a way I said, you know, I could easily go into plan mode, that's like our default, right? I can easily go in there. But I can't because obviously, I've proven to myself that locking myself in a room really comes out fruitless. So I said, Okay, I'm going to do some play. And we're just going to do things that are fun, right? Like, I just want to do things that put me in flow, and that are fun. And there's a lot of research by Stuart brown on the science of play, and the impacts it has neurologically for you, as well as kind of biologically for you. And so I said, Alright, I'm gonna do this work. And so for me play is, you know, our family loves Disney. And it's a very 4d experience, right? You know, you've got your sight, your smell, your sound, all of it, like everything is there for you. And it was a complete distraction. And that's kind of what I needed. And so we went to Disney with my folks. And then my daughter, and I went on a Disney cruise, which was a ton of fun. I'd never been on a cruise before. 

Laura Nguyen  

And then February was my month of pause. And so I was like, What am I going to do to kind of pause, I couldn't meditate for like, three or four minutes before this, okay? Like, I couldn't make it. So I said, All right, what am I going to do? I gotta commit. And I decided that I would go on a meditation retreat. And so went to Arizona, went on a meditation retreat for a week, meditating for like, three to four hours after that, like felt amazing. Yeah, just like phenomenal. Like I could see clearly, for like, the first time in years. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. 

Laura Nguyen  

And it felt awesome. So I was like, how do I, I need more of this, right, I need to figure out how to keep this feeling. So like, I'm gonna keep meditating. And I think, you know, for me, and actually, for my clients, one of the things we recognize, like, it's almost like meditating once a day is enough, like, you almost seemed like a second, like meditation, mid day ish, or even in the evening, just to try to reset and recalibrate. And it's, for me, it's about observing, rather than taking action, like I'm an action taker. And so forcing myself to go into a practice of meditation is kind of against my nature, and the ability to just observe what's happening, and letting those feelings pop up. Because feeling is not natural for me. 

Laura Nguyen  

And then march was like, Alright, what's the plan? Like, I gotta figure out what I'm gonna do. And so I built like, this whole matrix of like, here's all of the ideas of what I could potentially do, that were crazy. And then also potentially feasible. And also like, things that felt obvious, right? So there's kind of the spectrum of things. And I scored it, because you know, old habits die hard. I built like a weighted scoring model, and was trying to align it with like, does it align with my core values? Do I have the competency for it? What's the revenue generation opportunity? Is there a startup costs, you know what's that look like? And then I just like built this matrix to try to decide what I wanted to do. And then the last piece, which I added later, is more around pursue. So it's like, Let's go figure out how to make tests and learn and figure out how to make things happen. And if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, you know, try something different. 

Laura Nguyen  

So what came out of that. 

Laura Nguyen  

So a few things. So one was, you know, marketing consulting has always been something I've wanted to do. I've had friends that have left and open up their own firms. And I like the agency side of it, like I kind of I like working on multiple projects. And that kind of fills the growth cup for me, of continuing to learn and grow and be dynamic. So I was very, I'm gonna do 80% of my time will be on the marketing consulting front. And, you know, as being a people leader for as many years as like you and I have been people leaders, I needed something that would give me that aspect of being able to help with growth and development for others. And so I said alright 20% of my time is going to be focused on coaching. And so that was kind of my plan in my path. So that was kind of one avenue to those two avenues. And the third was, as I was talking to more people about what I did for my career break More questions started coming up with this whole play, pause and plan model. And all this research I had done for it right. And I had taken all these notes along the way and journaled along the way. And so the third piece was like write a book. And so I did, I wrote a book on kind of my rubric. And all the tools are in the book of what I used. And that comes out next September. So excited for that. Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Amazing. What is the name of the book? Is it play, pause, play, Career Break Compass or break compass. Okay, so everyone, check out Laura's book in September. That's so exciting. I have a dream of writing a book someday. It's one of my somedays. 

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

So that's amazing that, that you have that going. And so now you're doing coaching and consulting. And so tell me more about your coaching. What are you doing? 

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, yeah. So my coaching is really focused on helping folks who are in burnout. And so using kind of the same model of the Career Break Compass, and using it as a rubric for coaching, and helping them through that journey. And so for some folks that entails going on a career break, for others, it does not right. And for kind of the third tier, it's kind of thinking about how do you re enter right, a workplace in a more balanced core values driven approach. And so I was thinking about my coaching as like kind of three levels, right? When you're in burnout, and you've got to figure out how to be sustainable when you're in burnout, and you need a career break, because you've got to completely reset and recharge, or when you're re-emerging, and you're looking to start at an organization, and you know, it's essentially what's the successful first 100 day plan of your career in a way that also sets the boundaries early so that you can be balanced and integrated, and be successful in that next role.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. And what have you found as you've been working with clients on this, are they having similar stories to or are they what what is? What are you learning? Yeah,

Laura Nguyen  

so I've met, I've met with bout 150 people, in the last would have should have been since June of this year. So like, in the last six months, on the stories of burnout, and what I've learned is like, my story isn't unique, right? And even your story isn't unique, like recognizing there has, you want something different? You want? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah.

Laura Nguyen  

You want to live a more aligned core values based life. And so I think that's been the key recognition, the next piece becomes, well, what's next? How do we figure out what's the right journey, and I always, you know, I always say, like, I've got a model, but it's gonna, it's not cookie cutter, every person situation is so different. And when you're designing a life, that is your life, that has to make sure that it aligns with you as a person. And so everything is customizable as we kind of go along the journey and the path. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

That's interesting, both comforting and sad for me to learn that so many people are experiencing this. 

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, me too. Me too. I think that was a, you know, when I started sharing my story, and you know, found folks like you and you know, I think I had probably 1800 direct messages on LinkedIn, of just going through everyone's stories. And then of course, meeting with, you know, 150 of those folks, I think one of the biggest shifts for me was we have a massive problem. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. 

Laura Nguyen  

And there has to be a way that we can help solve for that. And so that's been kind of honestly, that's been my intentional, unintentional path over the last five months.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's a systemic problem. So systems need to change. And in the thing that we can do as coaches is to help support the people. Right, in the systems who are impacted by it.

Laura Nguyen  

Yep. 100%. And that's actually one of the things I talk about, especially in the book, too, is we spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to have the individual fix the problem that the individual has a solve for it. Right, right. But it's not true, right? The systemic piece of how do we help organizations actually should make changes themselves. And a part of that is by enabling top leaders to see a different path. And then having those leaders reenter organizations in a different way that then creates that ripple effect that you and I felt right, but in but in a way that allows their teams to be more values driven and truly living from a place of, you know, what fulfills them versus just a performance based model.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Right. Well, Laura, where can people find you if someone is experiencing burnout and wants some support with that?

Laura Nguyen  

Yeah, for sure. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm so Laura Nguyen when on LinkedIn, or you can find me on my website, which is LauraNguyen.co

Laura Nguyen  

.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

I'll put those in the show notes as well so that everyone can reach out to Laura because no doubt, many, many of our listeners, I'm sure are experiencing burnout or have experienced burnout and we'd love to connect with you. So thank you so much for sharing your story. Laura, I'm so it's exciting to see you on the other side. And also I'm so interested to hear and kind of watch your journey beyond you know, you're a year out. Now I'm excited to see you know, what you're able to do and the impact you're able to have for so many individuals experiencing it, and maybe systems and companies and organizations as well. And we'll definitely be on the lookout for your book next September.

Laura Nguyen  

Thank you so much. Appreciate you taking the time. Thanks so much.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  

Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, thanks everyone so much for joining us today. Everybody have a wonderful week.