The High Achiever's Guide to Pursuing a PhD While Balancing Career and Parenthood - with Lisa Tran

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:08  

Welcome to the executive coach for moms podcast where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host Leanna Laskey McGrath, former tech exec turned full time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic, and certified executive coach. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:31  

Hi, everybody, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for joining me today. I am so excited to introduce today's guest, Lisa Tran. Lisa works at SMU Cox School of Business. And she used to work with my husband. And so we know each other through there and from our days in Dallas. And she recently posted on social media that she had obtained her PhD and she has children and she works full time in a leadership role. And I was like, Lisa, you have to come on this podcast with me and tell me and our listeners how you did this and everything that you learned along the way. So I'm so excited to hear from her today. So welcome, Dr. Lisa Tran.

Lisa Tran  1:15  

Thank you so much for having me. This is such a treat. And it's been a while since we've actually spoken, but it's always great. Reconnecting through social media, that's definitely one of the biggest benefits.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:25  

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited to hear what you have to share with us today. And maybe if you could start off, just tell us a little bit about yourself and your background.

Lisa Tran  1:36  

I'm a second generation Asian American, my parents immigrated to the US from Bangkok, Thailand. And they came here, my dad had a different journey. He came here actually to pursue higher education. And always thought that, you know, it was for short term, but then decided to, back then it was great, really achieving the American dream, becoming an entrepreneur and decided to raise our family here in the US. So I was actually born in Greenville, Texas, so about 45 minutes east of Dallas. And I won't go into too much detail of why my parents decided to have us there kind of the immigrant experience, it's who you know, and the only tie OB that they knew within the area happened to have a practice in Greenville, Texas. So that's the back story. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  2:27  

Oh, interesting.

Lisa Tran  2:28  

Yes. My mom is also from Bangkok, she completed her college degree in Bangkok before coming to the US. So my parents actually met in Dallas got married in Dallas. And I'm one of five kids, my parents raised five children, five kids in five and a half years, and there's no multiples. So if you can just imagine. We we we love being part of a large family. And we're best friends, because we're so close in age. And you know, I'm actually here in Denver, Colorado, where one of number four out of five, one of my sisters has her family. So very close to my family. And that's a big part of, you know, really my story. And making sure that you know one day when I had children, I want my children to be very close to each other. And we all we were always taught, you know, your best friends hopefully will be your siblings, they're going to stick with you through and through and thinking about teamwork, even leadership. I'm the second out of the five kids, but the eldest girl, so whatever that means there's a lot of birth order and gender roles that I took on at a very early age that has, really thinking about it and reflecting on it, really helped form how I lead, how I engage with other individuals. 

Lisa Tran  3:50  

So that's a little bit about me, personally, I'm married. My husband and I have been married for 17 years. We are college sweethearts, and we met at SMU as undergrads. And we have three children. So they're now as of last month 12, 10 and 8. So you know, when I started my doctoral program, they were, gosh, nine, seven, and five. And it's crazy to think that years, you know, when I look at photos of when they started, they just look completely different. But that three years felt like it flew by, but also, you know, it felt like an eternity all at the same time. And I've had the wonderful privilege of, I wouldn't even call it balance, but being able to create a fulfilling life as a working mother, as a spouse, as a daughter, and then also connecting with a community because I work from my alma mater, SMU Cox School of Business, that sense of ingrained community that I never really thought would be such a big part of my overall identity in all those aspects of life. That's a little bit about my background. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  5:02  

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. So you and Jimmy didn't want to do five kids in five years?

Lisa Tran  5:09  

Absolutely not. I know, three is three fee-. Every time I travel with kids, I think about my parents going back every summer to Thailand, because that was the deal with my grandfather was, you know, he wanted all of us to go back and kept telling my dad, you need to come back. All our family is here. My dad's one of nine, my mom's one of six. We're the only ones who are born and raised in the US. And so the agreement was every summer, we went back for the entire summer. And also, that was an amazing experience in itself, but traveling 24 hours across the ocean with five children, I can't even imagine.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  5:53  

No, I need to have your parents on here next I feel like, it's amazing.

Lisa Tran  5:58  

Oh, my gosh, I know, I know, they truly are my ourheroes in so many different ways.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  6:04  

Yeah. I also as the eldest girl and eldest child, I totally agree. I think there is something about birth order, right, that impacts how we lead and how we think about leadership, or at least for me, that's kind of what I found. And also in talking with other people, there are so many leaders who are the first, the oldest of their gender, which I think is so interesting. So you decided to pursue a PhD. And you have, I would say, I don't know if demanding job, is that the right way to describe it?

Lisa Tran  6:39  

I think any any job is, is demanding in one way or another. But yes, it would be very different, let's just say if I didn't have a career, that took time, but then again, you know, behind the curtain, and I've had so much time to reflect on this, and you know, my husband and I just celebrated our anniversary, and we went on a staycation. And we talked about how we survived. So I guess I should also share that within those three years, my husband decided to run for office as well. And so that six month time period, within the second year of the program was a blur. And we felt like we were going in so many different directions. And our kids were also super busy. People say, Oh, it gets easier when they're older. No, it's just different busy, you feel like you're missing out on, you know their activities a bit more, because there are certain trade offs, right and really prioritizing where you want to spend your your time. 

Lisa Tran  7:42  

So the career piece, I honestly don't know, how I would have been able to stay so focused, had I not had the different aspects of my life intersecting all at the same time. So there was no time for me to procrastinate, that's a double edged sword too because I felt so much pressure and undue pressure on myself, really. I was like, Okay, I have 15 minutes that 15 minutes should be spent on reading a new journal, that could be a part of my my research, instead of saying I need 15 minutes just to myself to not even think about work or school, you know, just to have some quiet time for myself. But there was just so much guilt that I always felt like there need I need to fill every single minute of my time with Kid related stuff, work related time or school. So but on the other side, because I had so many, you know, everybody has obligations, whether you have children or not. But for me, I wanted to be a present spouse, a present daughter, a present mother. And then also I was still really enjoying my career. 

Lisa Tran  9:02  

And I think that's the piece that I would have to say, you know, in my previous role, and you mentioned that JR and I, your husband and I, used to work together. Had I not transitioned out of a student facing role before I had decided I was going to pursue this degree. It was never a an if question if I was going to do it, it was when and whenever I talked to people who are considering going back to school or even getting a certification, whether it's a non degreed or degree program, it's just investing in your own leadership or your own learning. There's no perfect time, but there is a right time. And COVID was so hard in so many ways, but it also allowed me to really reflect on the next stage and where I wanted to set myself up career wise. 

Lisa Tran  9:50  

And I also had an extremely supportive boss, who per happened to pursue his PhD in his 40s and he was a father and just seeing that as an example of making that career switch, you know, having a corporate job and pursuing a PhD and knowing that at the end of the day, this may not have an immediate impact in my career, but knowing that this is a good investment, because I wanted to personally do it for my own learning and planning for the next phase, and not really expecting, okay, I'm gonna get this degree, I'm immediately going to have a career switch. That was never the intention, right? The intention was, this is a good point in my career, where I do believe, given the supervisor that I had, the type of job that I had, that was external facing, and then also, my life circumstances at home, my husband left the corporate sector. You know, prior to COVID, we both were traveling for work, that would have been extremely complicated if I had to school on top of it. And the thing that I really loved about the SMU program, was it was an in person residential program that's set up for executives, right, higher ed, so certain level of higher ed professionals in their career. So I'm not having to go to class every other day, it was a very concentrated amount of time, so we could plan accordingly within the family. Now, was it perfect? Absolutely not. I missed out on family events. But what made me focus and prioritize even more was how do I call it cutting the fat out of life, you know, there are certain, I wouldn't call it luxuries, but it's a understanding what the needs and wants truly are, needs for my family, versus wants. And so an example, so many weddings occurred within those three years, including two of my brothers, both my brothers decided to get married within a month, within a year of each other during the program.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  11:59  

They really should have planned this better.

Lisa Tran  12:02  

Way better. But you know, that's just how life happened. And I, because they're my brothers, and I'm so close to my brothers, I knew that regardless of what's going on in my life, I'm gonna make it to the wedding and one of the weddings was international. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  12:18  

Wow.

Lisa Tran  12:19  

Would have been really nice for them to plan it around my class schedule. But of course, that doesn't happen all the time. But that's an example of that's a non negotiable in my life, because they are a sibling. If it's my husband, my kids, my parents, or my siblings 100% non negotiable for me, I will be there. If it is an in-law, or a a friend, it would have been nice to go and show my support. But again, everybody had to be understanding, including myself giving myself some grace, that I would love to go, but thinking about the makeup work that I had to do for that weekend that I was gone in Ecuador for my brother's wedding, it was obviously worth it. And I'm I was willing to do it. That took up even more time that I didn't have that I did not feel was, I wouldn't say it wasn't worth it, but I just had to make certain decisions, you know, a want versus a need. Right. So that's kind of real life example of life decision that I had to make. And I always prioritize work my kids events, you know, and luckily, my job is more Monday through Friday, and not a lot of weekends. So the weekends were really focused on family and school. So I had to iterate multiple times, times of the day where I had focused attention on just school. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  13:55  

Yeah. 

Lisa Tran  13:56  

And my writing for my dissertation always happened before my kids and my husband were awake. And I just knew after the kids went to sleep, I just didn't have the the mental or physical capacity to do any type of school related work, besides coursework, right? There's coursework, and then there's a dissertation that's looming, always, within that time. So it took me about a semester and a half to figure that out. And once I got into a routine, it was easier to stick to that. So that's what I would say.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  14:32  

I have so many questions and things I want to jump in on. 

Lisa Tran  14:35  

Please do.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  14:36  

So one thing is the idea about kind of like your non negotiables your needs versus wants, cutting the fat. I think you know, what I hear you saying is establishing better boundaries, being very clear about values and priorities and making sure that you're, you know, living in the way and spending your time in the way that you can still feel good about how you're spending your time, even though you're having to say no to probably more things, understandably, during this time. What did that process look like for you? Is that something that was a upfront, you sat down and you figured out you and your partner were like, Let's figure out, you know, what's most important, and let's be clear about it? Was it like an iterative thing? You know, you just kind of like it would when it would come up, you would, you know, you'd figure it out? Or was it like, I just know? I mean, because you seem very clear that kids, husband, parents, and siblings are the priorities and like anything, and then of course, work iand school, and anything else can fall to the wayside, like, was there a process or was it just kind of like you figure it out as you go? 

Lisa Tran  15:43  

It's a combination of the two things. So people who know me know that I love acronyms. And I don't take credit for coming up with this one, I actually give credit to my dad. So how I grew up gave me the discipline needed to live the life that I do. Our family growing up, there are four F's that we lived by. It's faith first, right? So making sure that we are giving, giving thanks to God, for all wonderful things that, wonderful or also the challenging things that life throws at you. The next one is famil,y and a family is inclusive of our immediate family, our work family, friendships as well, that have become family. Fitness is the third. So we prioritize our health and well being from a very young age. And I am grateful that my parents always said, What you put in your body is very important. And then you have to exert some type of energy, because exercise is very important. So I've exercised my whole life and still continue to do that. And always make time for it, whether I'm on vacation, if I have 20 minutes, or 30 minutes, because I know that it helps me mentally as well, if I'm physically active. And the last piece is food. So food is we love food, we love flavor, we love to travel all over the world. And food is such a big part of our culture and upbringing, that wherever we are, we want to make sure that we are eating really good food. 

Lisa Tran  17:17  

So all of those four things have been interwoven within our life. And when we think about, like the family piece, the slash friendships or you know, colleagues, all of all of those things, and then also fitness, it's mental, spiritual, physical, obviously. And learning is a big piece of it, right. So mental growth is also part of fitness. And so education was so important in our upbringing, you know, my dad came here to the United States for education. So it's always been that that big part of, of our lives. 

Lisa Tran  17:55  

So that has always been the foundation in my life, throughout my life, and carried on to my first career, having children all of that. And so, the discipline to ensure that we are, that I am very intentional with fitting those things into my life, is finding synergies. So an example would be, I love to run. And I knew that, especially when my kids were really young, I would fight the urge to make sure that they are sleeping in their crib when they're napping. And that's just not happening, I've already tried for over an hour and a half, I would pop them into a jogger and get my run in. And that's when they would sleep. So that's the iterative process that we talked about, you know, I would go into something thinking this is the way that it should be. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  18:45  

Yeah. 

Lisa Tran  18:46  

And never giving myself the opportunity to flex what that would look like, in a different stage of my life. And, you know, going into an example of the iterative process with Jimmy and I, you know, my husband and I, and even with my kids, it's, I'm an extreme morning person, I have become, you know, even more so because of having children and being in the program. So my non negotiable was, regardless of the day of the week, I would wake up at 4:30 in the morning, and it used to be 5:30. 5:30 was not early enough, then I would scooch it up another 15 minutes another 15 minutes, and I was like, You know what? 4:30 sounds like an ungodly time to wake up, but because of the discipline that I've had in my life, you know what, you just do it and within 20 to 30 minutes, I am ready to go in front of my computer. And I would say okay, I gave myself a goal of I need to write three pages. And I would be really hard on myself because I couldn't even get a paragraph out. 

Lisa Tran  19:48  

So the iterative process in that writing in that discipline was just making sure that I'm in front of the computer. And if I'm reading something or doing something that's even related to you know, the action of writing. So between the hours of 4:30 and 7:40 to the dot AM, because that's one thing that I made sure that I wanted to do every day, although it's only 10 to 20 minutes, depending on the morning that I'm taking my kids to school, all three of my children, that's the protected time that I have with them every single day, I will do that unless, okay, I had a breakfast meeting that I can't move. But 95% of the time, I was able to take my kids to school. So between 4:30am and 7:40am, was nobody could come into my work office. And that was something that was really hard for my son to understand, because the first thing that he would do when he wakes up is, Where's Mommy? He's the youngest. And so we had to teach him over time, you know, when this door is closed, and you see that the light is on Mommy is working on schoolwork, she will come out at 7:40 and take you to school. So that took some time. 

Lisa Tran  21:00  

And then after that, you know, of course, when my husband decided to run for office, we had to have a serious conversation about how that's going to change our family dynamic. Even the scheduling. And oh, I failed to mention because we haven't had one for almost a year, we had au pairs throughout and for your audience who may not be familiar with the Au Pair system or the setup, it's basically a live-in nanny, you bring in normally, I guess it's all of our au pairs. So we had six au pairs in the span of seven years. They come from another country. And what we loved about it was our kids are being exposed to people from all over the world and from different cultures. And so that was so helpful had we not had live-in help, it would have been extremely hard to at least navigate the first two years of me being in school. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  21:58  

Yeah.

Lisa Tran  21:58  

Again, but our last au pair up and quit on us via text message while we were on vacation a week before school was starting in my final year of the program, it was a wake up call where we're like, you know what, Jimmy is no longer in a corporate type of job, he has more flexibility. He ended up not winning the election, you know, and I hate this term, everything happens for a reason. But had he won, we knew we would have had to have a backup immediately. And it gave us that time and space to really try and see if we could do the first time and being parents of three children of not having live-in help. It was just easy default, because we had someone and now our kids are all school aged. And so we're like, Okay, this is a cost savings, this is time for us to at least test we gave ourselves one semester. If we can survive a semester without live-in help, we can make this work. 

Lisa Tran  22:57  

And so Jimmy signed on from the very get go that he was going to be the primary caretaker of our kids. And had we not had that dynamic, we would have figured it out. But that was such a benefit for not just me, selfishly, obviously being in school and work and being a mom too, but it just made me feel a lot more comfortable. And I would I would be lying if I said I was guilt free. Never in the three years to this day that I'm ever guilt free. But it made me realize that okay, you know what, one parent will be there. You know, the trade offs are majority of the time, mommy will make it to all of the big things. But I can't be there at practice. But Daddy's gonna be there, you know. So we were able to make that work. And he gladly, and this is a small tangent, but when we were first dating, I remember him telling me, it must have been our second or third date. You know, when you ask those corny questions, what do you want to do with your life grow up or whatever? He's like, Well, you know, I want to, you know, have a career. Obviously, I want to be married, I want to have a family and, and one day, I would love to be a stay at home dad, because he didn't grow up with a present father. You know, that was just something that he knew from in his early 20s or even before he was 20. That would be a dream of his and had been planning his life, so he could leave the corporate sector. But obviously when he say he's, he's retired, he's busier than ever. He's now an entrepreneur and has a lot of flexibility. But in all intents purposes, he is that present primary caretaker that he's always wanted to be for our children. So we feel like that is a balance. 

Lisa Tran  23:09  

Now, I'd be lying, now this is behind the curtains, if I said that it's a perfect dynamic. It's not. There's times when you know, just a couple weeks ago, he just asked me in passing, when was the last time that you went grocery shopping? Or when was the last time because I, you know, as I mentioned to you before, what I'm intentional about what I want myself and my children to be consuming, like food wise, very particular about that, but I've had to learn, okay, you know what, you got to give up some of that control. Because you're not the one doing the grocery shopping. So having that conversation where I was like, Well, I mean, don't you think this is the right decision, because this is what we're feeding our children? And Jimmy's like, I had 15 minutes to go in and out. I didn't have time to sit in front and compare whatever nutritional content it is, this is what I'm gonna buy. This is what we buy every single week. And this is what it is. So that one comment triggered a very short but heated conversation. It's like, Don't you realize that I'm picking up so much slack here? So- 

Lisa Tran  26:00  

Yeah.

Lisa Tran  26:01  

That is something that I've had to learn, you have to make compromises really, you know, it's not the end of the world. It's not the end of the world if you, your husband and buy organic strawberries this one time because he couldn't find any or it was just didn't look good. You know, I read my conversate was couldn't you just have gone to a different grocery store that had the organic?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  26:25  

They're in the Dirty Dozen? Come on.

Lisa Tran  26:27  

I mean, come on now, exactly. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  26:30  

Well, I think that that's such a good point about kind of the idea that I think a lot of times our expectations as very high achieving ambitious women is that like, we want everything to be perfect, right? And like everything done at 100%. And then we feel really guilty, like you said, or you know, or disappointed, or, like we're failing, if we don't check all those boxes. But, you know, to Jimmy's point like, alright, well, if I have 15 minutes, how can I do my best with what I have? And sometimes it's it looks different than like, our best pre kids or with different circumstances, right. It looks different. And it's so funny, I love that you shared Jimmy's story, because that was actually JR and I had a very similar conversation but the other way around. I think it was about four months in and I said, I'm in this tech startup. And my plan is that I want to, you know, sell this and have an option in case I want to spend time focused on our kids, I just want to be able to, like have that as an option. And so like I was also actively working towards that in my 20s and setting myself up to be able to do that. And then I ended up taking two years where I did that. And now also I'm in an entrepreneurial role where I can have that balance. So, well, you talked a couple of times about knowing when was the right time, and it sounds like you and Jimmy both took turns going back to school. How do you know like, how did you decide it was the right time?

Lisa Tran  28:08  

So I guess we could start with Jimmy, you know, he worked in management consulting. And thankfully, the firm that he was working for worked for Bain, pre and post business school, he knew that he wanted to get an MBA, and he wanted it to be paid for if possible. So it was ingrained in his mind did the research and said these are the companies Bain BCG McKinsey that I can work for and should work for because they are going to pay for my MBA one day. And so we knew at year two, he was, you know, doing well enough in the company that they would sponsor him to go back to school. So he would go first. And so thankfully, it worked out. And it was also a full time. Now what I did not sign up for was the additional degree that he decided to get while he was out there. It was another one of those conversations. Okay, there was this amazing fellowship, he's always been interested in potentially pursuing public office or something in the public sector. And they have this specific program at HBS with the Kennedy School for business students who are interested in learning more about the public sector or potentially serving in the public sector has dual degree and there was a fellowship that was offered to a handful of students that were pursuing their MBA. So he found out about this fellowship. And then one day I remember him coming back to our apartment. He's like, so what do you think about me pursuing this dual degree? And I was like, how much longer? Because I always thought I would go back to Dallas and then work back in retail. And I was like, I signed up for two winters, not three. So now we are, we are signing up for a third winter but honestly, it was the best decision. He got into the program. He ended up getting the fellowship. And then if it wasn't for that extra year, I don't know if I would still continue in higher ed, to be completely honest. And so there was a decision point where I was like, do I go back to corporate, should I stay in higher ed, but it was the best decision that we weren't even planning for that just so happened. I was like, You know what, this is the best intersection of the corporate sector and academia, because I'm working at a business school, and I'm connecting with corporations essentially doing what I'm doing today. 

Lisa Tran  30:29  

And so that was the decision, the right time was, that's what you do at Bain, you work for three years, you go and pursue your MBA, then you come back after the two years, and then you have to pay them back the two years that they pay for school. Now, he went for three years. So it was, what does that look like? You know, and he ended up staying three years. And then after we had our first daughter, he was like, I can't do this, because he knew he wasn't going to be a lifetime, lifelong management consultant. But it's just hard to leave when you have those golden handcuffs, you know, and I got used to it, he got used to it, me knowing that I would stay in higher ed, I'm not going to be the breadwinner at any point. But the thing that I would have to say is he always valued what I contribute professionally to our family, whether, you know, it was a percentage of our overall dual income. But he also knew that I, I truly loved what I did compared to, it was more of a, I need to make X number of dollars so I can leave the corporate sector by the time I'm 40. For me, I could retire in this industry. That's how much I, I feel so fulfilled. And that was that was honestly what helped us stay focused on finding the right time. 

Lisa Tran  31:49  

And then I ended up once Jimmy graduated from HBS, we knew we were coming back to Dallas, after we did some soul searching of oh, we can live anywhere in the world and work in any office. But we wanted to have a family and I needed to be, I really wanted to be close to my parents when that time happened. And so I knew that I was going to go back to school. And we took turns. So I remember being in Boston, right before we're about to leave on our we were blessed because he was in consulting to travel all over the world. We went to seven continents in the three years that we were, um, that Jimmy was in business school, and we had all the miles in the world to be able to afford. So we were able to travel and I just remember having to study for the GRE. You know, I haven't touched any of this. And but I was able to focus right, I was able to focus, I was able to take it and then we left on our travels. And then I knew I was going to apply we were going to come back to the DFW area. And I knew I wanted to stay in higher ed. So instead of going and getting my MBA, which I thought that I would always do, I got my higher ed degree at North Texas, University of North Texas in Denton. SMU didn't have their school of education or a higher ed program at that time, or else it would have been a no brainer with the tuition benefits. But after pursuing that degree, I ended up getting my first role professionally at SMU, and I've been there ever since. And so that's kind of how we figured it out. 

Lisa Tran  33:14  

Like okay, then it was do I go part time? Or do I go full time. I was like, Jimmy's like you know what I was able to do it full time, I'll support you in doing it full time. So I was able to finish in three semesters versus four. And then you know, I was working, then we started a family a year after. And I've always wanted to go back and get my doctorate. Once I knew that was the industry that want to stay in. But I didn't want to go when I was still having children. I know people do it. And I know people who have done it, it was just not for me. I can't imagine having to balance all of that, pumping in between class or all of the all of those things. 

Lisa Tran  33:57  

And so wanted to wait, what I thought was an ideal time when my youngest was entering kindergarten. But like I mentioned before, it doesn't get any easier. It doesn't get less busy, the complications is just different. So there's more activities that the kids were a part of, that I felt like I was missing out on. So that was honestly our journey and our conversation and figuring out what the right time was. And I also, COVID gave me a lot of time to reflect because I wasn't hosting events, going to events, I had more time to really think and process. And when I got this notification from the university across the board, all of our grad programs were not requiring GMAT or GRE because you couldn't even take it. So I was like, I should really think about this. Because honestly that has been like if I have to take that GRE or GMAT again because it expired because by that time I had been working for, or I hadn't taken in 11 years and the grace period is had completely expired. And so I'd be lying if I didn't mention that, right? Like the fact that I did not have to study and take the darn GRE, again, was a huge reason why I decided to go for it at this point, because I was like, Who knows when they're going to require it again? This is, this is the time. 

Lisa Tran  34:21  

So I sat in on a virtual info session. And I was like, talk to Jimmy about it. It's always a no unless you try. That's our motto in our family. It's always a no to that job if you do not apply, it is always a no to that school if you don't apply. And so it was my time to literally listen to my own words of advice, and I buckled down, obviously, I talked to my boss about it. And Shane was like, I'm fully supportive, this is something that I've thought that would be truly great for your future. It's a terminal degree. And I'm fully supportive. Let's figure this out. So that was how we figured out the right time, somebody was being the sole income earner at all times. And now obviously, thinking about health insurance. You know, with Jimmy being an entrepreneur, I think we would figure it out if we're both in business for ourselves. But no, I like the security. And obviously, it boils down to I really enjoy what I do professionally, because it allows me to develop in other aspects and also be engaged in the community. So that's the other piece that I forgot to mention. 

Lisa Tran  36:29  

You know, we're very involved in our community in nonprofits, and the work that I get to do professionally leading corporate engagement and strategic partnerships, a lot of my professional relationships have been formed through the work that I get to do in the community. And so it goes back to finding those synergies in the intersections of life and work and the people that we meet. Jimmy's circles have intertwined with mine and his connections have really benefited me professionally as well, and vice versa. So we're blessed. And people asked, have you is Dallas a forever home for you? And I said, Yes, I can't imagine leaving this community that we've built for so long. And who knows, like once our kids flee the nest, but at this point, I just feel blessed in so many ways. It's not perfect, you know, Dallas or Texas, I don't think there's a perfect home anywhere. But it really allows us to be fully engaged in various aspects of our life that I believe is unique. If I had to pluck myself up and move myself to another part of the country having to rebuild all of that is something that I don't know I have the time or energy to do. But that's kind of how we're able to make it work. And at least for me, just feeling fulfilled in different aspects. And if I didn't have that, it would make it 100 times harder. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  36:34  

Yeah. The thing that I keep, like asking myself in my head is like, do you sleep?

Lisa Tran  38:00  

I do. But I don't sleep enough, I sleep more now. So my ideal is seven hours. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  38:08  

Okay.

Lisa Tran  38:08  

No more, no less. My commitment is at a minimum of six hours, especially when I was in the program, but six hours a day or a night. Now, I can also say and you know, as a mom, it's the consecutive hours of deep sleep that matters more. It's quality of sleep versus quantity, because I can sleep, have my head on the pillow for seven to eight total hours. But in that time, I would have woken up two or three times. That is disruptive sleep is does not do me any good. That's when I get sick. I because I'm physically active. That's when I literally burn out when I get sick. And I know that when I get sick, it's because I don't get enough rest. So I get between six to seven hours of sleep a night. Now it varies depending on what's going on in life. It's those six to seven hours are consecutive sleep or cumulative hours. So I do sleep, probably not enough in a in a very, you know, concentrated amount of time. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  39:10  

Yeah. Yeah, and you talked about during your program, like you constantly felt this pressure to, you know, use up every little like 15 minute increment that you had. How did you avoid burnout? How did you take care of yourself and keep going? When it was like you know, you're feeling that constant pressure and you're, you're not feeling like you can ever take downtime?

Lisa Tran  39:34  

It goes back to I guess two things. It's the discipline of just showing up. I'm a big peloton person. It's always it's always the hardest part is just showing up. Right? That is step one, but the discipline of just showing up and it's the muscle memory of being present on whatever it is. And then the other piece is I sprinkled in, quote unquote luxuries in life. We love to travel, we love exploring the world is something that we do with our children. I still do that with my parents and my siblings, obviously, with my immediate family now. Jimmy and I, from the very beginning, even when we were dating, we said, we will always travel just the two of us. And we made that as a commitment even throughout the program, because it's just so hard to connect without all the distractions. So we would pick, sometimes it would just be a weekend, or it would be a week, we went to Ireland for a week, you know, or we went to Turkey in February. And people were like, wait, you haven't even defended, you defend in about two weeks, aren't you nervous? I said, I could be. But I've already made this commitment financially, and then also personally to Jimmy, that I'm going to make the time and we're going to do it. And the benefit of that is when you're flying for 13 hours from DFW to Istanbul, I take that time, and I work on my dissertation without any distractions oaround. And then I would give myself an opportunity to watch a FRIENDS episode the on demand, I needed that time to just unplug. So that's kind of, I would build these small rewards small or big. And that reward was if I can get, we left on Valentine's Day to Turkey, like, I'm gonna get this done, by the time I leave for Turkey, then I can unplug while we are in Turkey. And then replug because I knew I had that protected time whereno one's going to distract me. And I'm in this seat on a plane for 13 hours. 

Lisa Tran  41:42  

So that was kind of how I approach not burning out. And then also I told myself, this is a season, it will pass. Knowing that this is a finite amount of time, just like when we moved to Boston, it was a finite amount of time. I knew I could I never lived away from my family like this sounds crazy to a lot of people. But I grew up in a very traditional Asian family where you do not leave your parents' home until you get married. So I just knew that I just live at home. And I went to SMU I lived on campus for a year because we were required for students to live on campus. But I knew that, you know, this is where I always was going to live. I never thought about moving anywhere else until my husband and I got married and we had to move to Boston. And the way that I had a lot of anxiety about moving that far away from my family. And then I think about my parents who moved an entire continent away from their family. And so I also looked at it the newborn phase after each kid, it's a finite amount of time, I can get through this. 

Lisa Tran  42:48  

Now, was it easy? Absolutely not. But I also knew whether it's a big event that I'm working towards, or big program work related, it's, there's a finite amount of time. And I like to quote, she's amazing, Anne Chow, who's a friend and a mentor, who's a former CEO of AT & T business. She says, Approach life as though it's a HIIT workout, because there are going to be intense periods of your time. But there's high intensity, but it's an interval of your life. So when you you know, you look at this one chunk of time, that's a 30 minute HIIT workout, then you have to recover, figure out whatever that recovery is, and stick to it. And, you know, that actually came when she mentioned that. I remember, it was still during COVID Because it was one of these leadership development programs that was done virtually. And it was like that is such a wonderful way to articulate-

Leanna Laskey McGrath  43:45  

Yeah.

Lisa Tran  43:45  

-how being a working parent, or just any type of stressful time in your life. It's, you view it in increments, and then decide what your recovery period looks like. And whatever makes you excited and gets you to that finish line is the way that I was able to avoid burnout. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  44:05  

Yeah. Yeah, I love that actually, as soon as you said that I thought about parenthood, and about all the seasons, you know, and, and even how, just like 18 years is a season of you know, when we have kids at home, and I think some seasons are super intense and, and some seasons a little less. So yeah, I think that's a really great analogy for life in general, just that, you know, there are intense periods and periods of recovery and rest. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  44:31  

So I have loved hearing about your story. I've loved hearing about you know, your takeaways and how you've done it. And I am just curious, is there anything else that you would want to share or have learned that might be helpful for someone, especially maybe someone who's considering going back to school, but they're like, How in the world could I possibly do that when I have a demanding job and I have, you know, kids to take care of as well?

Lisa Tran  44:53  

Yeah, I think on that very point, it's making sure or that you have a support system. And whether you're a single person, or a married person, or a single mother, I have to say, if I did this without the life that I have, and the dependents that I had in my life, it would still remain true. You need your cohort, you need people who can pick you up, when you feel like you are going down a path of mental destruction, but be very intentional about it. So as I mentioned, before, I had the support of my supervisor. And I understand, you know, I talked to grad students all the time where they're like, you know, my boss is not supportive of me pursuing this degree. But knowing, when I was doing informational interviews, and as I was thinking about, should I even approach this, Dr. Dawn Norris, who's wonderful and still works at SMU and student affairs, you know, she said, At the end of the day, when you're pursuing anything, any type of learning, it has to be for you, you want to do it for you. And the number two thing is, make sure that you have that support system. So I'm borrowing this from her is, you know, whether it's your spouse, or your parents, if you have a dog, and when you're in class for 29 out of the 72 hours of one weekend, who's going to let your dog out? Right? So making sure you're not going to anticipate being able to anticipate 100% of all the things that you need support on. But again, it goes back to what are your non negotiables? How do you stay healthy for me? I wanted to exercise every single day. So how do I fit that in and making sure that your support system is understanding of that. 

Lisa Tran  46:40  

And then the last piece is, there's no such thing as immediate gratification in anything that we do. And that's something I still teach my children, right, the things that you do today may seem really, really hard. And you may not see the benefit of it for a while. But just know that if you're pouring into yourself, especially in learning, and it's always worth it, and if I can do it, I promise anyone could do it. Because I never ever, ever thought that I would ever become Dr. Lisa Tran, at any point, I had no desire. And it wasn't until I was in the profession that I was in surrounded by amazing people and mentors and knowing other moms that have been able to make it work. Like I still don't know if I could do it. Well, their kids are in high school, they're not in elementary school. Well, then I meet moms or single moms who have a toddler. And you know, so it's not to say that anyone feel guilty for not doing it. It's an example of if they can do it, I can at least explore the option. 

Lisa Tran  47:54  

Yeah, it's possible. 

Lisa Tran  47:55  

I'll go back to my very last point is, it's always a no unless you try. And that's what I would say you're never going to know if you can do it until you put your name in the hat. And as women going back to the imposter syndrome, it just No, I don't think this is for me. I can't do it because you know of whatever reason. I think anyone can do it. There's no perfect time. But there is a right time. And knowing what that time is, is only determined by you and your support system.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  48:32  

Wonderful. Well, thank you so so much, Lisa, for sharing all of your knowledge and everything that you've learned and sharing your story. I really appreciate you taking the time today to talk to me and for all of our listeners.

Lisa Tran  48:43  

Thank you so much for having me. This has been so fun. 

Lisa Tran  48:46  

Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you everybody so much for tuning in. We will see you all next week. 

Lisa Tran  48:55  

Thanks so much for tuning into the executive coach for moms podcast. Please like subscribe or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care.