The Power of Emotional Healing & Authenticity in Leadership - with Jessica Trammell

Jessica Trammell  0:08  

Welcome to the executive coach for moms podcast where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host Leanna Laskey McGrath, former tech exec turned full time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic, and certified executive coach. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:30  

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the show. And thank you so much for joining me today on this almost last day of June. I don't know where the summer is going, but it's almost July. I hope you're having a wonderful summer. Today, I am really, really excited to share this conversation. I know I say that every time but honestly, I just talk to the most amazing people. I love doing this podcast because it gives me an excuse to have conversations with people who inspire me. And today's guest is no exception. I am talking to Jessica Trammell today. She's the Vice President of Marketing and mother of two. And Jess and I have known each other for over 20 years. We met in college and and we've kind of reconnected at various points since we were in college. And every time we talk, we just have such amazing conversations. And so last time we chatted a few months back, I said, Hey, do you want to come on the podcast and like record one of these conversations because I love talking to you. So she agreed. And I'm so grateful to her. So we covered a lot of ground. And also I feel like we could have kept talking for another five hours, and still not covered everything we want to. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:44  

But one of the things that Jess and I talked about is about how loyal and passionate she is. And that's something I really admire about her is that she's very clear who Jess is and she always gives it to you straight. She is not someone who's like super outwardly emotional, but one of the things that she said at one point was that she loves so hard and that she was so afraid that she would fall in love with her baby and not want to give up time with the baby for her work. And she really really also loves her work. And so I wanted to learn more about that and hear about her perspective and how she has reconciled that, especially being the primary breadwinner in her marriage and kind of feeling that financial stress and pressure to perform and continue to bring money into the household for her family. So I love this conversation. I hope that you enjoy it as well. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  2:49  

Let me tell you a little bit about Jess. Jessica Trammell is a seasoned marketing executive with over 16 years of experience in the dynamic landscape of digital marketing and growth strategy. Currently serving as the vice president of marketing for EF Go Ahead Tours and leader in guided group travel. Jessica has consistently demonstrated her expertise in driving substantial business growth through innovative data driven marketing strategies. With her passion for travel and proficiency in cutting edge digital marketing techniques, she has positioned EF Go Ahead Tours as a leader in the group travel industry. Jessica is dedicated to her family and to empowering women and parents in the workplace. She enjoys traveling the world and learning about other people and cultures. She actively mentors young professionals with the hope to grow and invest in the next generation of leaders. She holds a bachelor's degree in marketing from West Virginia Wesleyan College where we met and is based in New Hampshire. And whenever I talked to Jess, she had just gotten back from Zurich. She is traveling all the time. If you connect with her or follow her on LinkedIn, you will see all of her fun, amazing adventures because she loves travel and she loves her work. She loves her family. And I hope that you enjoy hearing this conversation with Jess as much as I enjoyed having it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  4:24  

I am so excited to introduce today's guest, Jessica Trammell. And Jess and I have known each other since our college days. So it's been a while and we ran into each other at a conference a few years ago, and then reconnected recently. So we had this great conversation a few weeks ago. And I was like Jess, we have to record this. I wished I had recorded it. And so she was totally up for coming on the podcast. So I'm so excited for y'all to meet her. So welcome, Jess.

Jessica Trammell  4:55  

Thank you for having me. It's really good to be here.

Speaker 1  4:58  

Yeah, it's great to have you and great to See you again. Can you start off telling everybody a little bit about yourself? 

Jessica Trammell  5:04  

Yeah. So I am the Vice President of Marketing for a large educational travel company. I've been there now for over 12 years. And you know, I've really been focusing on growing my career there. Specifically, I feel like I've been really supported in doing so. And while while I was there, I also became a mom of two amazing kids. It's just been a journey over the last 12 years in that transition. So that's kind of what I've been up to. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  5:33  

Yeah. And how old are your kids? 

Jessica Trammell  5:34  

So my son just turned seven. And my daughter is just turning four, my wonderful little COVID baby of transition that we went through that, and learning through that process also. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  5:45  

Yeah, and I think one of the things we talked about, and you talked about your career, and what you're doing, is that you are the breadwinner in your family, right? 

Jessica Trammell  5:56  

Yeah. So my, my wife is a teacher, which I am beyond proud of I One, I could never do it myself. I think that her job, I feel like is one that never gets enough credit. She also is a coach, a basketball coach of a high school girls basketball team and give so much of herself in doing that. And do I think it gives the financial reward that it deserves and what she invests in? No. So I'm the financial, I guess breadwinner of our family in that way. And the, I guess what we were talking about, like the pressures that that that brings in a different dynamic, maybe traditionally, you know, the traditional sense of, of what kind of the world has painted that picture to look like, specifically. So it's been an interesting piece, I think, especially with my upbringing. You know, my father was in the military, I was his only child female. And to be very honest, my dad was a little chauvinistic, especially with a daughter. And in some ways, I think the way that he pushed me and raised me in a weird backhanded way with him preparing me for what I think he thought the world would treat, and still somewhat treats women like, and there are things that I look back on that I'm really grateful for, because I do think it has prepared me to deal with situations in life, and also just the strength and the resilience, and the preparedness, but also even my mother, who, you know, they separated when I was when she was young. She was, you know, I was like three years old, she was 25 years old, 26 single mother, and also seeing her and how she navigated that I think just helped me kind of understand where I wanted to be and where I wanted to go and understanding that process. And so, how this leading up to being that financial breadwinner and that pressure, I think I had some positives that came out of all of that, that kind of got me ready to be to be okay with doing that. And I think when we were talking about it a little bit, it's like, what does that look like, as a female having that pressure of that, that breadwinner? And what does that look like through that lens?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  8:08  

Yeah, and how does it feel, I think is what I am curious about, because I know that many of our listeners are either the primary breadwinner, or likely an executive or a leader who is significantly contributing to the household income. And so I know that, you know, I coach a lot of women, and I've talked to a lot of women who are like, I make multiple six figures, but like, I'm not doing what I want to be doing. Is it crazy for me to even consider giving this up or making a different decision? So I think especially whenever it's like, there's really not that option, because you know, we don't have another source of income that would sustain us at this moment, then it feels maybe like a little bit more like, I've got to make the best of my circumstances, right, and like, and make sure that I am continuing to succeed and achieve. 

Jessica Trammell  9:02  

Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's twofold with it. There's a little bit of the the avenue of like, feeling like you need to succeed and also provide I mean, I think that I think there was also a different pressure that happened when we had kids also, I don't know, like there was a shift a little bit for me, too, where it was like there was like an additional pressure that came into play. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  9:21  

Yeah. 

Jessica Trammell  9:22  

And I also think in some ways we aren't set up, really, at least for me to not be a two working household family right now. Right? Like, it's difficult to not be, you know, and when you do kind of have or make that decision to be one at some point if that's possible, you're still doing sacrifices, even if someone's still doing really well, like the way that things are set up now, it's still you're having to do sacrifices on either end. And I think I've seen plenty of friends that have kind of taken that step back and you know, maybe not done the career but they still had to sacrifice and I give so much kudos to them and what they've had to do. And then there's the other piece where you've had, you know, me and my wife are still two people working. And there is definitely a different dynamic to the threshold of what we each bring. But I also think there's that respect level that happens. I think the thing that kind of, I think became heavier for me when we had kids, and it wasn't my wife that put this pressure on me, it almost was the self pressure of myself is that I felt like I needed to provide for this family now, this nucleus of a family that I didn't technically have per se. My parents are divorced, of course, they remarried. And then we have these, obviously, like families, but you know, I had this instinct where I was like, Okay, now this is my family, I have to provide for this. I need to make sure that I protect it. This, this instinct of protectiveness came over me. And I think I've always had that natural instinct to protect anybody. I think we talked about this previously, it's like, I am a little bit of a loyal, you belong. Like, if you're connected with me, I got your back, whether you're my boss, whether you're my colleague, you're on my team, I got you, there's a piece of me that I think that's just natural instinct that like, I'll protect. 

Jessica Trammell  11:16  

And then the same thing with my family. When that when those kids came into play, it was like, Okay, I have to make sure I'm setting them up for success. And I always thought way too far in advance. And I still think I do that with that pressure of like, do I need? Do I have enough for their college if they want to go to college? What if they don't want to go to college? Do I have enough to make sure that we are having these experiences? Like I work for a travel organization, I see what travel does and the transformative experiences. So am I making sure that we're having those and that we're putting that aside so we can experience that? Are they able to do after school activities? Can I make sure that you know, they want to do that trip for little league one day? Can I do that and it's not going to be causing these issues? 

Jessica Trammell  12:00  

And then there's also just the whole relationship piece like, I've always seen, at least what I have heard and what I've seen, I never wanted finances to be a part of my marriage that became an issue. I always wanted to remove that piece. And I don't know if you know, you talk about trauma, I don't know if that's, you know, through divorce in my family that has been very prevalent throughout. But that was one thing. I never wanted to be a factor in my relationship. I just, I was like, relationships are not hard. But they're effort, right. And it was the one thing I didn't want to add a compounding factor to. And so it's like, what can I do to remove any mitigating risk to my relationship? So these are all the things that I think is the breadwinner, and just the overall protector mindset that I think I live and breathe. I think those are the things that I always been thinking about and trying, striving for.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  12:58  

Yeah. And I think what you brought up his like, basically, you're sacrificing either way, right? It's just like, what are you willing to sacrifice? And what are you not willing to sacrifice and being sure that you're really clear about what your priorities are, what your values are, and making your decisions based on that so that you can feel good about however it is that you are choosing to spend your time knowing that no matter how you spend your time, we can't be in every place at one time. So we're going to be sacrificing something. And are we okay with that?

Jessica Trammell  13:29  

Well, and I think that's the biggest piece of like, time, time is money. And from even just like, a personal thing, like time is so precious for me. And I think for so many people time is so precious. And so again, I feel like I've had this evolution moreso in the last couple of years. And I don't know where it's come from really actually, I don't know if it was COVID I, you know, the positives that came out of that, but there was this evolution, where I just recognize how much precious time was for me, along with this family in this nucleus piece that I'm trying to provide for. And so, you know, obviously, I've invested a lot into my career and, and wanting to make sure that I can be successful. But I've also acknowledged that success for me, isn't just about titles or saying that you've done something, righ? Like I actually think I told you this that we had an off site, a leadership off site, and you had to kind of put words together and I and I think I tend to two words together. And for me, if financial gains were not part of the success, like for me like for like the the piece of my family then I didn't want it because the if I'm spending the time there, it better bring something back in the long run to my family. My family at the core is the most important thing to me in the end of the day. And I think I've acknowledged and established that a long time ago. I think it was one of the main reasons why I feared having, one, getting married. I feared having children. I didn't want children. Because I knew the moment that I did, I just knew myself, that I'd have to make sacrifices and choices. And I would choose them. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  15:13  

I remember, yeah, in our last conversation, you said, I love so hard, and I was afraid that I fall in love with my baby and not want to give up time with them for work. So how do you reconcile that?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  15:25  

You brought up a great point in the beginning about how to reconcile like, it's not a 50/50 balance. And I do think we struggle, at least I struggle with that, on a daily basis of this like perfect 50/50 balance, and that i just want that so so badly.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  15:42  

I think we all do. Yeah, we believe it exists. 

Jessica Trammell  15:44  

We believe it exists. And I know it doesn't, but I want it, I want it. I think the reconciliation happens and ebbs and flows. And I think it happens with this kind of jumpstart of myself sometimes when I can feel I'm tipping too far, one direction or the other, to be honest, like, and I actually at that leadership off site, one of the questions was is, when do you get the best of me? And I actually said at work, you get the best of me, when I have more time with my family, you will actually get the better Jessica A. Trammell. That's how you know I sign myself at work, you will get the best of me there when I have more present time with the family. Not qual- It doesn't have to be long, doesn't have to be cra- I'm not asking for like, you know, this craziness, but it has to be present. It has to be quality, it has to be in the moment. Because even if I'm with them, if I feel like I'm being pulled in another direction, that is the tipping point for me of just it's not a great place. So I think there's those moments where I have to redirect and bring myself back and when I feel myself going in the place where I'm with them, but I'm not really with them, that's when I know I'm completely unbalanced. And I've shifted too far away from to the core of actually what matters to me, and it's them. And whatever it is whether that's work, friends, whatever it would be. They are my core. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  17:14  

Yeah. 

Jessica Trammell  17:14  

And I know that. So deep down. And so whatever it is, if it's something is going to take me away from what I know, to the truest form is what makes me the happiest, then that's when I'm like okay, rebalance, reset myself, because I've allowed the tipping to go too far. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  17:29  

Yeah, I think we all have for sure. And what do you do? Like, do you have any strategies that you have found, or, you know, like tangible things that you do to kind of reset yourself or get yourself back into a more a balance that you're more happy about?

Jessica Trammell  17:45  

So for me, I need this base to almost reset myself. And for me, my my mind is very noisy with someone that has ADHD, the brain is constantly going and it's a constant spin. And so for me, what I need is everyone needs to go to bed. Kids are in bed, they go to bed pretty early, which I'm very grateful and blessed that they they will go to bed early. My wife needs to go to sleep, she needs ... And that doesn't happen often. Usually, we actually go to bed together. It's like a thing that was like, we'll go to sleep. But usually what I do, she'll go to sleep, and then I actually will stay up really late. And it's the moment where I sit with myself. And I kind of just am so introspective. And sometimes it results in being in the dark. And I who doesn't don't like to show a lot of emotions will cry by myself. And that's how I've always kind of been, I think we were talking about like, I don't like to show a lot but like I will cry by myself in the dark. Or it might be where I will just sit there in the dark and just be thinking about, what are the things that I'm not liking about right now? And it's not to be self deprecating, like things of like you're doing this wrong, whatever. But I just have to say it out loud and like really think about it and be present with it. Or I'm not going to shake myself enough to actually make change and sit with it and feel it. 

Jessica Trammell  19:06  

We talked about compartmentalizing I compartmentalize so well, sometimes too well, and if I don't feel it, if I don't feel the pain, feel the angst, feel the sadness, feel the disappointment in myself, of how I was as a mother that day, if I don't feel the disappointment of how I was as maybe a boss that day or a friend or whatever it is, I will compartmentalize it and I will not feel it and I will ignore it and I won't make the change. And so for me, it's alone late at night, dark, quiet feel it. And I don't like to feel it. So it's I have to it has to get pretty bad for me to like make myself do it knowing it and then I it kind of then I see, I wake up the next day I'll go to bed feeling pretty awful. But then what I find is that I released it, and I wake up the next day and because of the resiliency that I think I've built up, and also just who I am as a person, I'm going to make it better. And I'm going to do better. I kind of set up a game plan of like that next day is like, this is going to be a good day. Me and a really good friend, we have this thing, it's like, it's going to be a great day. And even if it's a shitty day, we're gonna we say, we're like, it's gonna be a great day. And I say to myself, it's gonna be a great day. And then I just try to really focus on what I felt, what I've acknowledged, and now what are you actually going to do to make it feel better and not sit in those, those moments too long. Because by sitting there in self-deprecation, and just like kind of staying in that moment, that also does not help make the situation any better. And I find that I need to then like, get through it and move and move through it. So that's kind of what I do.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  20:44  

Yeah. Yeah, that's so interesting. I think, you know, obviously, we all have our processes of how we do this. But I think one of the underlying kind of universal things is like space, right? Like, we need to have some space to sit with ourselves, whether it's like by ourselves in the dark, or with a coach or counselor or friend or, you know, partner, that we're like sitting there and talking it through, or that we're sitting there and thinking through, but it's like having the space to kind of check in and also processing our feelings. I think I love that you said that, especially as someone who doesn't love feelings so much.

Jessica Trammell  21:24  

I mean, don't get me wrong, I still go to a therapist, too, like everyone, therapy is the best. Executive coaching, therapy, still got to do that for sure. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  21:32  

Absolutely. But kind of like having that space to check in and to recalibrate, I think is what you're saying is like, Am I doing this the way I want to do it? What what do I need to change? You know, what recalibrations do I want to make? 

Jessica Trammell  21:49  

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the other thing is like, Look, I've been going to therapy and love therapy and think it's amazing, or whether it's an executive coach. I think that what I've learned through the years of doing that, though, is not waiting till those times happen. I think what I do at that night time is everything I've learned on how to actually process, healthy processing. And I think that's the transformation that occurred. And I think that's what's really important to your point of like, when to do it. I think sometimes people wait till those specific moments because it's almost forced, I think a lot of people this to this point of compartmentalizing, we all do it, depending on how well you do it. Some people do it great. Somebody will actually don't even do it that well, like, you know, like when they're at work, like you can tell something's wrong. And you're like, are you okay? Like what's happening? Like, I get like, I can feel people's feelings really easily. But I think sometimes people are so good at it, that it takes that appointment to almost make them start to assess. And I think what I would say is, sometimes it's not good to wait until that moment, and to force yourself to do it a little start at least working on it a little bit, even if you're not sure how to work through it, at least allowing yourself to start feeling it. And at least feeling the uncomfortable. Little bit of that angst, I think could unlock a little bit once you go to therapy or get to the coach, or you get to whoever that friend that you need to. I think it would help you maybe move faster as part of that. But I think sometimes it's scary to do it alone, also, though.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  23:15  

Yeah.

Jessica Trammell  23:16  

It can be scary to do alone. So but also, let's be real, I've been doing therapy for many years. So

Leanna Laskey McGrath  23:22  

Same. And I think too, it's kind of like a societal belief that, that we're taught that, like, we've got to prioritize everybody else before we prioritize ourselves. And so several years ago, when I was trying to do this, like executive and having a baby at the same time, I would have a really hard time. And what I noticed is that I would only let myself like, take a break, or give myself any time when I was like there at that breaking point. Because it was like before that felt, I don't know, selfish, or like, who am I to take that time for myself? Who am I to even like, say that I need it? And is that okay? And I think I had a really hard time with that, until I really recognized that, that wasn't helping anybody. Right? Because it would be like, I would get to that breaking point. And then I would just kind of like snap at people that I loved or you know, not really be available to them in the way that I would want to be, not show up in the way that I would want to show up, not show up at work as well as I wanted to show up. And so what I realized is like, it's my responsibility to recognize this within myself and to take care of myself and not let myself get to that breaking point every time. But like, catch it sooner, you know, like I've got, we've gone through the cycles so many times in our lives, like at some point we've got to figure out how to like, like at what point it makes sense to do some kind of intervention and stop ourselves from getting you know too far gone.

Jessica Trammell  24:58  

Well, I think what you just bring up, brought up a great point about the self accountability. I don't think everybody does that, that acknowledgement for themselves of like, when is that too much? And I think I think it's hard to acknowledge when is that point through yourself? And also acknowledging, when is it you versus others? Like, when is this a you thing versus other thing? Like, I find that sometimes I'll be super like, I'm just like, Oh, why, like, this is bothering me and everything's so frustrating. And I'm like, It's me, it's a me thing. But it's because it's, it's not one big thing. It's all these little things have just started to add up. And they are just toppling on top of one another. And it's the smallest little thing that would not normally do anything has now just been put on the top and it's just 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  25:47  

Crumbles.

Jessica Trammell  25:48  

And it's crumbled over. I'm not sure, though, in those moments, unless you really started to practice self reflection, if people always recognize that it's more on them, than the fact that they externally project that it's everybody else. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  26:05  

And all of the circumstances surrounding.

Jessica Trammell  26:08  

And all the circumstances that are surrounding it. And I think that is really hard to practice. I'm still not the best. And there's still some thinsg that I think I'm like, No, I deserve to be frustrated. This is really annoying, and you're frustrating me, but there are times where I'm like, is this moment deserve the frustration that I'm giving it? Or am I frus- Am I giving it more frustration, because of all the other things that now have added up to make this now one thing, it's getting the brunt of the five things before it? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  26:37  

Yeah I literally just saw this, and I loved it. This quote, it says, Heal, so you can hear what's being said without the filter of your wound. And I think it's like, we've got so much under that one thing that, you know, you put on top and crumbles everything. And it's our job, it's our responsibility to deal with that, and to not let it pile up. At the same time, we know how hard that is.

Jessica Trammell  27:04  

Oh, it's so hard.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  27:06  

Right. And how hard it is, especially as a working mom to try and like find the time to do that. And to set aside that time. But I think, especially as people who love to take care of other people whenever we can recognize that it is in service to us, but it's also in service of our children of our partners of our workplaces of everyone around us that we take care of ourselves and have that self accountability to check in with ourselves and to heal the things that are causing, you know, causing us to be triggered or, or be really bothered whenever someone says something at work that we're like, Hm, that's interesting, right? And kind of checking in with that.

Jessica Trammell  27:46  

I think that would make a lot of people more successful even at work, right. Like even just within themselves of trying to understand themselves in relation to, what past trauma are you bringing either from your personal life or even past traumas, from previous work experiences, to your work environment, that potentially are holding you back from expanding your relationships, creating positive pieces in the work and you know, with your co workers or your your new boss or whatnot? Like I find that I've experienced that with a couple of people that I've hired, and I've had to call them out and say I have a gentleman that works for me. And I've had to be like, Hey, can we have like real talk? And he's like, Yeah, and I was like, I feel like you're bringing in something from the past into this conversation? And he was like, Oh, yeah, I am. I was like, You don't have to worry about that. Like with me. I mean, I know how bad it was like, we've talked about it, like I know it, like that's not the same. And so it is just super interesting how much the self awareness has to occur on home and, and work. It's just, it all bleeds together.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  28:54  

Yeah, but here's what I love about what you're saying. That self awareness helps you show up as a better leader, like the fact that you do it for yourself, and you can recognize it in yourself, helps you to recognize it in other people, and in your team to be able to say like, Hey, like, you know, in the story that you just said, like, hey, this might be showing up here. You wouldn't have known that that was the thing if you hadn't been doing the work yourself.

Jessica Trammell  29:20  

1,000% the work that I've done for myself, I hope makes me a better leader for everyone that I'm that I'm leading. And I hope that I show up for them in a way that brings them to be motivated and come to work and want to be at work and do things that I think that I try to lead by bringing an authentic self but also being someone that cares about other people like I just can't show up to work and put that again, we talk about time and money. My time at work is away from the things that are the most important to me. And so I can't spend time with people that are not, it's not authentic. If it's fake, if it's political, if it's not real, and they're not real relationships, I don't want it, I'm not going to be a part of it, I will remove myself from situations very quickly, I won't do it. And so I think that's how I lead, at least with my with my own team, I want meaningful connection, I want to be there for them, I want to be my most authentic self. But I also want them to be their most authentic self. I want to call it how it is, I want to help them see where maybe they're, you know, coming from a place where I'm like, Let's take a step back. And, you know, not try and be a therapist by any means. But it's just more trying to help bridge the gap that we all spend too much time working together, and just working in general in life, for it not to be enjoyable, authentic, and just this experience of semi, like joy, it needs to be joyful. If it's not in why are we doing it? And why are we away from the things that matter to us? And and that's not just kids, that's not just family, that can be the hobbies that we're not doing, or just the things that are important to us. And so I think that's what I try, at least what I try, I want to do, I try really hard, not saying it happens all the time. But I think I try to create that type of culture, even in the day to day at my work, because it needs I want it to feel that way. You know what I try to what I'd say that I do for myself, I want to try to bring that into the office culture too.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  31:25  

Yeah, I remember you saying you have to love your work to want to keep doing it after kids really love what you're doing to feel good about spending that time away from your kids. And I think what's so interesting about what you're saying is like, I think a lot of people look at work and I and recently Gallup just came out with their state of the workforce report that they do every year. And it was really interesting hearing them talk about the low levels of employee engagement. And here in the United States, we were on an upswing like we were headed in a positive direction until 2020. And since COVID, our levels of employee engagement have actually dropped, whereas they've continued to grow globally, the from 2023 and 2024, it stayed the same, but what you're describing, it's like you have that fulfillment when you're at work, so it doesn't feel like you're missing out on something at home. Right? It's like you're still feeling fulfilled, you're still like filling your cup, right. And you're still like, getting something out of it. It's not like you go to work just to give and just to like, produce, but you're like going there, and you're enjoying it, and you are able to like make these authentic connections because you're prioritizing that. And so that feels a lot more life giving than life draining, which is I think how so many people unfortunately feel about the work, like I just have to go there and make the money so that I can pay for everything. And then you know, be upset that I'm taking time away from my kids and then come home and like spend like the few hours I can with the kids. And it sounds like you're saying like No, like I am really actively creating a situation where I can enjoy that time, as well as the time with my kids.

Jessica Trammell  33:16  

I mean, I try, right, like it's not always rainbows and butterflies. It's not perfect, but

Leanna Laskey McGrath  33:21  

Yeah, it's not perfect, of course sure. 

Jessica Trammell  33:25  

I need to do that. I think part of that creating and focusing on that within the culture that we're trying to do. I always had the same with like my team. And I've always been very honest. The moment that you're working for a company, that you feel like you're giving more than you're receiving back, it's time to mutually leave, it's time to leave. I don't want you to stay ever, if you ever feel like I'm not giving back as much as you're giving me. That should never happen. And if it is and then one, we should have a conversation about it if that's how you're feeling. And then let's fix it. But I don't want that. And so I think it's super important that when when that happens, there's a there's a disconnect. And I think most company cultures that don't focus enough on the piece of what are you doing to give back and it's not just giving back of like, growth and development. And this is like it's true like connection like 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  34:21  

Yeah, authentic human connection.

Jessica Trammell  34:23  

Authentic human connection. And even at my level, I, no matter who comes on my team, I meet every single person before they're hired. I don't allow anybody to be hired in the team without meeting them first. Because it's this pond that I look at as such a healthy, beautiful, thriving place. One sickly, toxic plant or fish that gets put in can ruin it all. And so it's the one piece that I haven't given up yet. I mean, I'm not on a huge, I only have 28 people right now on our team, so it's not a gigantic team, but like, there's 28. And I've met every single person before they've been hired. And I hope to continue that I hope not to lose that connection with everyone so that we don't ever we don't lose that piece of it. That's the place that will that make to your point it needs to stay happy and healthy and fulfilled, or it's not worth it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  35:17  

Yeah, not for you, not for anybody else there. In the Gallup conversation the other day was actually the chief people officer, chief HR officer at Etsy was talking and she asked some questions that I've just loved. She said, How are we developing people, leaders that can lead the modern workforce, people who can build trust and build connection, especially in a distributed workforce, those who can hold a high bar for performance, but also be empathetic and have conversations about well being? And that's not every leader. But I do think that whenever we think about preparing for the future, and the kind of workplaces that we want to work for, and that make our society better, just because the people who work there, enjoy it, and then like they come home, I think employee engagement is like such an important thing for us to be focused on. Because the more people in our world who enjoy their work, who go into work and feel happy and connected and fulfilled, they're going to come home, and they're going to be better people to their families, right, like they're going to be able to show up with reserves, like feeling fulfilled, and show up from that place rather than feeling like depleted from, you know, the work sucking the life out of them all day. They're gonna go out in their communities, and they're going to show up better there. And it should, it just has a ripple effect. I mean, I just love the focus that you're talking about on that real authentic human connection and employee engagement, because I think it's so important, truly makes the world a better place. If we show up better for our kids, we're creating the next generation right now. And whenever we are doing that, showing up feeling fulfilled, and feeling engaged, is going to just make us much better parents than if we are constantly hating our lives hating our work and feeling completely depleted from it.

Jessica Trammell  37:09  

I mean, if that isn't a cycle that is hard to break, right? You know, that's what I'm saying about that restart at night, sometimes. And I don't know why the nighttime for me, it's like you just feel like you can like almost end it on the worst note possible. And then it's like, you reset, so you can go to sleep. But like, I do think there's that cycle that continues have miserable at work coming home, then you're feeling miserable at work, you yell at the kids, and then you're you feel bad about that. And then you you're sitting there and going to bed, well, I'm just gonna go to sleep I've had a horrible night, and then you go to bed because you didn't read and then you go straight to bed because you're so tired, but you did no reflection, and then you wake up and you're kind of in a bad mood, because you didn't actually reflect like, it just becomes this vicious cycle of the same thing. And I think there's that, at some point, you got to shake it up. And I don't know where it is for every person. But I do think sometimes you have to kind of break some part of the cycle wherever it is at and I think some people do that through taking a vacation. Maybe it's doing a field trip, going to your kids school and doing a field trip day and remembering like the like having that moment of being present or, you know, like me at night, but I think I think breaking the cycle is to me is the biggest first step and not continuing to stay in it. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  38:21  

Yeah, I mean, I think that idea of breaking cycles is that's what leadership is to me, recognizing that we're in a cycle that's been repeating, and we want to stop it like we don't want to continue it. And we take some kind of action or intervention to make a change, right. Otherwise, just like repeating the cycle over and over again, for their whole lives until we die that is hell to me, that is the worst kind of life for me, I just think that whenever we can break those cycles in our workplaces, you know, whenever it for leaders are the ones who need to do that. And whenever we can do that, in our parenting and at home, and in our relationships, and how we treat each other, I just think that that is the work of our generation. And so many people that I talk to are doing that. And it's so inspiring. And I love talking to and hearing from other people like you who are doing that work, and who are intentional and present enough to like notice whenever a cycle needs to be broken.

Jessica Trammell  39:21  

Yeah, one that I started during COVID that we kept doing and we've had to evolve it. Because as the team has gotten bigger, it needed to be evolved. But the what we do every other week right now is a 45 minute we call it Coffee Chat. And the team I break up the team into on teams now because we're so big and it needs to stay intimate. But we come up with a topic every other week, break up in teams. So they're smaller groups. There's like 14 of us in each each breakout. And it's a random topic, and we talk about it, and it's nothing about work. It literally is just the most random topic, but there's a reason I do it and I don't think everybody really like really understands why I do it. But it's like one of the topics might be like, What's your favorite thing to do the spring in the springtime? Or like, what's your favorite candy bar? What's I mean, I've we've done the gamut of topics like what monopoly piece would you choose? Like, it's the crazy thing. But it's exactly what you said. It breaks the cycle. It takes the pause. It creates the authentic connection between people, it creates those moments of fun and razzing each other potentially, in those moments, it creates lasting memories that you might remember about somebody and it brings it up in the future. And I think that's the piece that creates the pause. Do I think anybody maybe else maybe understand maybe why I do these? And they, some of them feel like, why are we doing this again, and it's like, it's important. In those moments, when we get so fixated of just getting the work done, especially with the kind of work that we are, we're a very fast paced environment, we are constantly trying to beat our goals and get that much bigger, it's important to just break it a little bit and have those moments of pause. So I couldn't agree with you couldn't agree with you more. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  41:00  

Yeah, and I mean, I think as high achievers, we just like tend to go go go. And it really is harder. I think it's easier almost to just keep going put our heads down, keep checking the boxes, keep doing you know doing our thing and kind of grinding through than it is to lift our heads up and look around and stop. Before we turned on record, which I wish I had started recording earlier, we were talking about compartmentalizing and kind of how, you know whenever we have big emotional things happen in our lives, like the loss of a loved one, how we may have to like put it on hold and like kind of deal with like the logistics of it, and then deal with it a little bit, right, and then go into our board meeting. And you were talking about like then flying to Zurich, doing our next our next big thing. I love how you were talking about setting aside time for decompressing and processing. And I think that that is something that again, it's like so hard to take that pause and set up that time for ourselves. But I'm curious, like how do you create that for yourself, justify it feel like it's an important use of time for you.

Jessica Trammell  42:06  

So I lost my grandmother just a couple of weeks ago, and she was a huge, huge person of my life definitely help raise was huge factor in my life in raising me and I feel really grateful to have been there when she took her last breath and what I was telling you is that that morning I was I was actually going to work on my what we call them it was like a board meeting deck with her and because they were due the next day. And I didn't get it done. So I had to work on it that very next day to get it done. And that compartmentalization was probably the hardest I've ever had to do in my career, probably from a true emotional perspective. Where I had to just go like be go mode, I was hurting, but like I had to be in go mode. And so and not that my work was not being great. I mean, they were being lovely about it, like they were being so but I just I'm a doer. So I got the deck done, I got it done. And then we have the funeral. And then I you know left from the funeral a few days later because I was direct for the board meeting and then I come back and we have lots of events happening. And then that we're here. 

Jessica Trammell  43:11  

And what I what I would say is the previous me years ago, would probably have not divulged to many people of how bad I was hurting at work. I was not, never a sharer. I just I struggled really hard previous previously  at this work, where I'm at to share and even more so previously had a hard time sharing with people that reported to me. I never wanted to burden my direct reports, or my team, that of anybody that reporting to me with any of my issues because I always wanted to be kind of like the breadwinner, the protector, the person that someone could come to, I wanted to be that for them and never wanted to burden. But I would say more over the last year or two I have been more open of stating, when I am not in a good headspace and being open about it. And you know, especially with this one specifically saying, you know, I remember the day after I did the board meeting I said to my boss, hey, I'm in a really bad headspace like I did the meeting. Yay. You know, I'm in Zurich, I just mentally could not go into the office the next day, like the next day I'm in Zurich, I had to work from the hotel I just could not get myself it was like everything hit me all at once. Recognizing and I could not compartmentalize and so I acknowledged it. 

Jessica Trammell  44:40  

That would never have happened previously. Right. And I think part of that is through my work that I'm doing with myself, but also just I don't know if it comes with age or just like your this reflection and also like with your children and you're wanting them to do better like you want to do better for them. And we talked about this like breaking generational trauma and things like that, like, I have to do it myself if I expect them to also do it. And so I'm also trying to be more vulnerable and open with when I'm not doing well. And so I had to tell my wife, I was like, I can't I can't do this. And of course, she was like, of course, like, don't I'm like, and why would I ever think she wouldn't, but like, it's just not like me to show that side of what I would consider from a chauvinistic military man father, that side and like what I would consider weak, like, I have a lot of weakness to come in, and I'm now showing it, I'm putting it on display and telling. So that's kind of where that happened. And then obviously, I fly home and then go mode of like, my kids are so ecstatic, I'm home, like, they were not happy I was leaving, you know, after all this stuff that was happening. And then I had a work event. And what I started to recognize was, I'm not okay, I have not acknowledged what has really happened. I haven't felt it, like we talked about feeling like it comes and bubbles up. And I can feel it at night when it's quiet. And I'm like, if I don't acknowledge and deal with this, it's going to eat at me, because she was so important. 

Jessica Trammell  46:13  

So I recognized that and I was like, You know what, I'm going to take to this coming next week, I have a leadership on site, I have a big day at work. And then I'm taking Wednesday, Thursday and Friday off, and I cleared my schedule, I blocked it. And I am not doing anything crazy. I'm not like planning anything, I'm literally just taking it off. And I'm not trying to fill the days, but I'm also trying to just be present. And a little bit of that being like hanging out with my son, but also just one of the days, I'm just gonna focus and go to the cemetery again, and just be in the moment and acknowledge that. And I guess long story, what I what I'm saying about all of that is that I still went into go mode, I'll acknowledge that. I didn't, I didn't, you know, in what I would say crumble or, you know, break under the pressure, I don't think I think that's one of my superpowers is that in the heat of stress, or really bad times, you can count on me and I will get stuff done, or I will be my the protector of whoever's around. But what I can acknowledge now is that that compartmentalization is, is not healthy to do for a long period of time. At some point, you need to acknowledge what has happened and what has occurred, and need to deal with it. 

Jessica Trammell  47:30  

Because it will bubble up, whether you want it to or not, it's going to bubble up and translate into something, whether it's your parenting, whether it's your relationship with your spouse, whether it are, you know, a partner, whether that is at work with someone that just doesn't do something, and then it explodes over to it's gonna show up. And so I've acknowledged that I know that about myself. And so I'm going to address it, and I'm going to do things that I think will help that and work through it and try to have those more present moments. And then hopefully not, you know, I don't think it's putting to bed, I think this is going to be something that I'm going to have to continue to emotionally feel for a little bit. And I'll think I'll continue to feel but I think having at least being gracious with myself kind to myself, and taking those days and saying it's okay, it's okay to take off from work, the job is still gonna get done. I implicitly trust this team. I know they got my back, because I have their back. And I need to be okay with asking for help. And I also had been very honest with my team that I along with my boss, but even with some of my direct reports that I'm not doing so hot, so I need to take a couple days off to make sure I can come back stronger. So that's kind of a little bit of what I'm doing and how I've approached it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  48:52  

Well, I so appreciate you sharing that. Obviously, like grief comes in waves. And so we can't like schedule to say like, okay, like, I'm going to do this. And then I'll be done, of course, as you said, but I do love that you're like intentionally taking some time and saying like, I am going to spend some time with this and process this. And I also think, like I said, kind of our stress response a lot of times I think is to go, go, go. At least I know mine is because that feels more comfortable than like sitting in the unknown with the uncomfortable feelings. I also love going back to like what you said before about being authentic with your team. I think authenticity and vulnerability go hand in hand. And so, you know, like you saying like, hey, actually, I'm not doing so great. I mean, if you like didn't, then you wouldn't be being authentic, right? You wouldn't be creating the kind of environment that you want to create, because I'm sure you would want to know that about one of your teammates if they you know, we're having a tough time as well. But I think also just like the idea that it's okay for us to not be okay all the time, especially as leaders we just hold our selves to this like, ridiculously high standard. It's okay for everybody else to not be okay all the time, but like not us.

Jessica Trammell  50:06  

Right. That's the hard part. But like, I felt like when I hit a certain leadership position, it was like, Okay, you cannot have emotion. You cannot, you cannot show people that you're frustrated you cannot like- And I think there is a level of like, you need, you have a higher expectation to like, be very respectful and control things. And I think it's all about how it comes across, right and being in a way, but like, and I think in general, I've never been one to show emotion. And I think a little bit of that's about how I've just always struggled with that. But especially as a leader, I always thought about it as a burden. I didn't want to burden my team with my stuff. I didn't want to burden my boss, they already have enough on their plate. Why do I want to burden them with my emotional baggage? Like, that's in my mindset, how I would work. I'm like, I don't want to burden my boss with my stuff. Like, she has so much on her plate. Like she's so busy. Like, it took everything in me to write her to just even writeher and be like, I can't come, it feels too heavy. I can't even explain to you to hit send. I was like,

Leanna Laskey McGrath  51:12  

That was so brave of you.

Jessica Trammell  51:14  

Okay, but I was so proud of myself. But I was so proud of myself. And but I've known her for 12 years, like there's no fear factor that that was gonna be repercussions. Like, there's literally nothing It was just that I don't like to burden people. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  51:30  

Yeah.

Jessica Trammell  51:31  

It has nothing with this fear factor that I think it's something bad that it's this, this sense of burdening and I think women in general do not like to burden. And I'm like, Where does this come from?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  51:44  

Our workplaces were created by men with male values. And so like, there are certain emotions that are allowed to be shown in the workplace. And there are certain ones that are supposed to be left at the door, right? Like we're allowed to show anger or passion at the workplace. But if it brings us tears, like, my dad is also ex military. And I wouldn't describe my chauvinistic, but he definitely said many, many times, like You do never cry at work. And I remember I like we were going through a merger, and it was like, so high emotional, and our CEO and CFO got fired. And I cried. And I was like, so hard on myself, because I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, I am not supposed to feel these things at work. So I think there's that. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  52:31  

And then I think there's just this the burden thing. I hear that from so many women. And I think it's like, because this is a generational thing, where we're kind of taught that, like, we aren't allowed to have these big emotions, right? What are we just like, go to your room. Yeah, it's like, go and deal with that somewhere else, but like, not here, like we don't, we don't want to hear that crying or that you're upset or that kind of thing. And so I think we kind of take that on as like if I share my I'm gonna say quote, unquote, negative emotions, because I don't think they're inherently positive or negative, but like our society's labeled them negative. If we show that, then we're burdening somebody or like we've done something wrong, like we were weak by showing that we should have been able to hold it together, we should have been, we should have gone into private and dealt with that ourselves. We never air our dirty laundry, right. And so it's like all these societal things that I think are put on us these expectations, and then we take on ourselves. But what is actually more effective is what you're talking about is being authentic and real with people is what Brene Brown talks about with authenticity and vulnerability, and that those two things are the necessary components for true connection. Like you can't have true connection without that. You can't have true connection, if you're holding back who you are and how you're feeling all the time. And you certainly can't expect other people to be real with you, in whatever ways that they're uncomfortable being real with you, if you're not going to be real with them in the ways that you're uncomfortable being real with them.

Jessica Trammell  54:14  

It's so true, the burdening in itself. And just the feeling like you're putting someone out, it's awful. And what you brought up, it's so interesting of like, going to your room being by yourself to do I mean that it's such a generational thing. And then I find I mean, even how to your point, I process a lot on my own. I don't want my kids to have to process on their own and so like, even when we do we call them time in or timeout, so like if my son is really overstimulated or needs, you know, a moment by himself, we'll remove him or obviously from the situation, but one of us go upstairs with him to lay in the bed with him. And we'll lay there and we're like, Do you want, would you like a hug? No. Okay, would you do jokes How about Nope, okay, and then some mind filled with trembling. Yes, I would like a hug, right? But it's like we're there with him. So we don't ever want him to feel like he has to at that moment, just as especially young to process by himself. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  55:10  

Yeah. 

Jessica Trammell  55:11  

And because I always had to process by myself. And this is where I feel like it's translated into this burdening behavior. And I think as he gets older, obviously you want, you want them to start to learn how to process when they're battling the rest. But I never want him to feel like as that, as a consequence, I never want him to feel like as a punishment, 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  55:31  

Ye.s

Jessica Trammell  55:31  

To process by yourself, processing is fine to do it by yourself. But I didn't want it to ever feel like a punishment to process by yourself. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  55:39  

Agreed. 

Jessica Trammell  55:39  

And so that's why like, when we have done this, like removing from a situation, it's been called a time in, and it kind of reminded me of that situation of like, what I hope my son does differently than I do about not feeling burdened by his emotions to somebody else.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  55:55  

Yeah, absolutely. And also being able to, like, have emotions in front of another person. 

Jessica Trammell  56:01  

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  56:01  

Like what a novel concept. 

Jessica Trammell  56:03  

We can all have some big emotions at times. It's all about how you how you come back from it, but also just like how it also comes out. Like I think there's healthy and unhealthy. And then I think that's the one of the things that I've always kind of said about, like, in the workplace as a leader, too. And I also think it's about tone. Like, I think it's all so about how your tone comes across. I think you can get angry, but it's about your tone of how you get angry. I think that you can be frustrated, but also your tone of how you get frustrated. Like, I think that sometimes the way that we not that we're held to this different standard, but I think that sometimes there is some methodical ways of doing things as a woman that I have, maybe had seen that we've had to do differently. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  56:48  

Yeah.

Jessica Trammell  56:49  

And whether it's right or wrong, different. But I do think that it's important to show that emotion at work at times. Like I think it shows passion. I think it shows the realness. And I think it's okay. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  57:01  

Yeah. Well, oh, my gosh, we could talk for hours. I know, maybe we'll have we'll just have to have you back again, we'll just call these real talks with Jess. Anything else that's on your mind that you want to share in closing?

Jessica Trammell  57:14  

I think for a lot of a lot of women in general, like it is this whole balance and just this idea of how to go from a working to home and to understanding like what's important. And I think my biggest piece of advice is really to just start to carve out some of the time to start figuring out what are the pieces that matter and start actually allowing yourself to feel the uncomfortable, I think sometimes the uncomfortable, we don't want to feel it because sometimes we don't know how to change it. And so if we feel it, then it might also make we might think it might make things feel worse, or that it's not that it we're gonna now be in this rut of like negativity. But I think at some point, you have to feel some of the uncomfortable to know how to create momentum and figuring out those kinds of steps. And don't allow the superpower of compartmentalizing that I think women have to hide it all. So I think that's my biggest piece is carve out some time, no matter what, even if it's at 11:30 or midnight, like me, to do it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  58:16  

I love it. Well, thank you so much, Jess. And one thing I'll say that kind of going back to that what you just said there, and what we were saying earlier, is just remembering that it's not like a one and done, right. It's like an ongoing thing. It's not like we like get into balance. And then we stay in balance forever. It's like we're constantly teetering back and forth ,we're constantly figuring it out. And we constantly are recalibrating. So that's one of the things I'm taking away from our conversation today to keep in mind so thank you so much for this conversation, Jess, I just love talking to you. So thank you for being here. And thank you everyone for listening. We'll see you all next week. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  58:58  

Thanks so much for tuning in to the executive coach for moms podcast. Please like subscribe or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care.