Stop Holding Back, Start Being You: How to Create the Career and Life of Your Dreams - with Shannon Talbot

Shannon Talbot  0:08  

Welcome to the executive coach for moms podcast where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host Leanna Laskey McGrath, former tech exec turned full time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic, and certified executive coach.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:30  

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the show. Thanks so much for joining me today. We have wrapped up our transition to motherhood series and focusing on maternal mental health for the month of May. And today, I am really excited to share this conversation with Shannon Talbot, who is an author and a coach, and also a former VP like myself, we have a lot in common. And she just wrote a book and it's a wonderful book that I highly recommend everyone pick up. And we're going to be talking about her background and her life, her experiences and her book. So let me tell you a little bit about Shannon. Shannon Talbot is a speaker, author, coach and happiness expert, a former corporate leader in the financial services and advertising industries. Shannon started her own company, Shannon Talbot Coaching and Consulting to help working moms create more balance and meaning in their lives. Shannon has an MBA from the Schulich School of Business and has been featured on CBC Radio. And in Today’s Parent, Chatelaine, LifeHack and Thrive Global. She has helped hundreds of working professionals and dozens of organizations through her coaching and speaking programs. Shannon's book, Breaking Free: Stop Holding Back, Start Being You is available on Amazon, Shannon lives in Toronto with her husband, two sons and a dog. I'm so excited to share this. I hope that you enjoy this conversation.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  2:15  

Hi, everyone, thank you so much for being here with me today. I am very, very excited to share the guest with you today. Her name is Shannon Talbot. And she is the author of Breaking Free: Stop Holding Back, Start Being You, your guide to creating the career and life of your dreams. Welcome, Shannon. 

Shannon Talbot  2:38  

Hello, thanks so much for having me. 

Shannon Talbot  2:39  

Thank you so much for being here. I have been immersed in your book all weekend. And I am so excited to talk with you about it. Pick your brain a little bit, ask you some questions. And also share your work your book and your thoughts with everyone listening today. 

Shannon Talbot  2:57  

Amazing. 

Shannon Talbot  2:58  

So I want to learn more about you if you could maybe just introduce yourself to everybody. 

Shannon Talbot  3:04  

Sure. So I like to take people back to 2008. Because that was a year that was really pivotal for me. I'd been in the corporate world for a few years by then. I worked in banking, I worked in a bank and Canada's International Division. Super exciting, super awesome. I was one of the only Spanish speakers so they like would fly me all over. Really fun. But then in 2008, things started to change a little bit. So I became a wife, I got married that year. And that was the first time I got a new title. And then that was also a time in my life where I took off time off from work to do my MBA.

Shannon Talbot  3:42  

So for the first time in my life, this Miss Independent Shannon, all of a sudden had to rely on her husband for money while I was going to do my MBA, and it started to shift things in me. And it's really funny looking back because he didn't care. No one else was telling me like how to act now that I was a wife really all that changed was I got had this title now. But I started to put all this pressure on myself that I had to act a certain way. And I had to be a certain way. And then from there, I started to progress my career and I started to you know, get new titles at work. Project Leader, project manager, people manager, director, and with each title, I put more pressure on myself and new expectations. And I told myself, Oh, you're this now, you have to act this way. And in a way I started to lose a little bit of my self with each new role. 

Shannon Talbot  4:36  

My husband and I also found ourselves struggling to get pregnant. So we went through infertility and we couldn't get pregnant and I didn't want to share it  at work with anybody because I was worried about how it would impact my career. You know, career first was a big thing for me. And so I put all this extra stress on myself too of hiding everything. And in the end, my husband and I ended up adopting our two sons so beautiful, I wouldn't change it for the world. But we went through and adopted our two sons two years apart, adopted them as newborns have this beautiful family now, but again, then I became, you know, a mom. And then I felt the guilt because I was like, oh, I want to have a really successful career. But I also want to be a really great mom. So again, more pressure piled on and piled on. And I found myself kind of starting to burn out and not looking after myself, and, and all of that. And so fast forward to, you know, just a few years ago, it took my youngest who I was pushing on a swing one really cold January day, but it was during COVID. So we had to get outside and I was pushing on to swing. And he said, Mommy, can I give you a goal for this year? And at the time, I had been doing my coaching certifications on the side. So I was really excited about goal setting. So yeah, bud, what's your goal for me? And he said, Mommy, can I give you a goal to be less angry, because you're angry all the time. And that was not the goal I was expecting. But it was the goal I needed to hear. Because it was in that moment that I realized, okay, Shannon, like, time's up, you got to figure out how to, you know, be less stressed, bring more happiness and energy into your life. 

Shannon Talbot  6:17  

And so it was at that time that I knew the path for me was to start my own business and to leave corporate and I started my own coaching and speaking business just a few months after that, and then was able to handle that balance a little bit more. But, you know, not everyone wants to do that. And you know, a lot of us do want to succeed in the corporate world. So a lot of the work I do now is helping, similar to you, the work you do is helping, you know, working moms be uber successful at work, but also be really great moms and be able to have more balance and energy and joy in their lives. Because it is possible, once we learn some of the tools and strategies to do it. 

Speaker 1  6:53  

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  6:53  

Yeah. And I love what you said about moving out of the corporate world and into your entrepreneurial journey. And you talked a lot about that throughout the book and kind of that journey of finding out more about yourself and who you wanted to be as a kid and who you are with all of the titles stripped away. And when you said, The move to leave my six figure salary and VP title in the corporate world to start my own coaching and speech company did not feel risky to me as crazy as that might sound. And I wanted to hear more about that. Because same we both share that part of our stories where we left that kind of a role. And it didn't feel risky to me either. And so I've been thinking about that, since I read that about why didn't it feel risky to me, I'm so curious why it didn't feel risky to you. 

Shannon Talbot  7:45  

I think and a lot of work I had to do and I still have to do, which is funny because had I not done this work, it probably would have felt really risky. But I had to let go, I had to change my definition of success. My definition of success for years and years and years, I'm in my 40s now, my definition of success was around title and salary and six figure salary and you know, the VP title and like it was going to be maybe an SVP I don't know, I wasn't I knew I didn't want to go like CEO that wasn't for me. But I knew I wanted to be up there. I wanted to be an executive. So that was my definition of success. But what happened in my case, and I'm not sure you know, I'm sure some of you can resonate, is, every time I hit that new title, or I got that salary job, it felt good for a little while. But then it was gone. And then it was what's next. What's next. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  8:40  

Yeah.

Shannon Talbot  8:41  

And I was almost like, you know, I was on a hamster wheel, you know, hamster on a wheel. And it never felt truly fulfilling. And that was the part that was missing for me. So with this move to entrepreneurship, I had set a goal in 2019. And I gave myself 10 years to get there because again, I was risk averse. I was like I'm gonna give myself 10 years. So in 2019, I set a goal and I said, I am a successful entrepreneur who helps women live happier, healthier and more fulfilling lives. And I said, Okay, I'm going to do that by 2030. In the meantime, I'm going to move into a different area of corporate where it's a bit more creative and strategic. So I moved out of banking and moved into advertising, super fun, very fast paced, the hours were off the charts, which is why I had to kind of speed up my plan. But I had that goal for 2030 and I knew in my heart that is what would truly light me up. And that is what I really wanted to do. And it was interesting because it took it took working with a coach actually to help me get there too. Because a big part of what I had to do was connect all the dots. When of my 17 years in corporate and look at when was I happiest? When was I most passionate when was I most fulfilled? And it was whenever there was an entrepreneurial environment and corporate along with other things. And I really had a passion for wanting to help people. 

Shannon Talbot  10:06  

So I knew, Okay, there has to be an entrepreneurial element. And I want to help people. And those were the two things that I knew. Okay, I have to do something with that. And so taking the leap, it was scary from a financial situation. And so I had to bring my husband along for the, you know, for the journey, and we had a lot of talks and a lot of planning happened leading up to it putting money aside all of this, but because it felt so right, and it was just felt so meaningful to me. It didn't feel risky. And I heard Gretchen Rubin, who is an, you know, happiness expert and author, she made a comment on the Jay Shetty podcast, she was a lawyer. And she left being a lawyer to become an author, lives in New York City, you know, expensive city living, you know, being a lawyer to be an author. And she said, I would rather fail as an author than succeed as a lawyer. And when I heard that, I was like, yes, that's exactly how I feel. I have to try it and see where it goes. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  11:07  

Yeah, I think what I'm hearing you say is that you saw fulfillment in one path, and the lack thereof, in staying on your current path. And when I was thinking about this, I thought, for me, it felt more risky to stay and miss out on like, I feel like I was missing out on too much on that path. And fulfillment being one of those things, my daughter's childhood, being one of those things, all those special moments. And so, for me, it felt riskier, staying on the current path than it did actually changing the path. And you talked about kind of redefining success. And I do think that's so important. And one of the things that you said was, a lot of my bosses eat like crap, they didn't exercise, they worked super long hours, and they were really successful, or at least what I used to find successful advancing and being recognized in your career. So I guess I'm curious, like, what is your now definition of success, since you have evolved it? 

Shannon Talbot  12:08  

Yeah. So now my definition of success. Number one, for me is family, spending time with my family, but not just spending time, spending quality present time with my family, because, you know, especially when I was in advertising, I felt like I was on call 24/7, right, if an emergency came up with my clients, so I would have my phone with me. So I'd be spending time with my kids, but I wouldn't be fully present. So now a big definition of success for me is being present with them. Spending that quality time with them and my husband, I dreamt of walking my kids to school, which sounds like such a small thing. But to me, it was so meaningful. And I would see my friends do it. And I was like, Oh, just one day, I would love to walk my kids to school. Now I get to walk my kids to school, I get to pick them up from school, you know, it's those kinds of everyday joyful moments that I really wanted to, to bring into my definition of success. 

Shannon Talbot  13:02  

And then to have an impact, you know, I really want to help women succeed and chase their dreams, whatever their dreams or their definition of success is. So to have an impact, doing that was also in my definition of success. And the part I still have to work on is the money, right? Like we all need money to survive. I love to travel, you know, I like some, you know, artwork and things like that. But I have to make it not be so much about the money anymore. The money will come and the money's there. But it's, you know, first and foremost, it's, you know, happiness, health and fulfillment. 

Speaker 1  13:35  

Yeah,

Leanna Laskey McGrath  13:35  

Yeah, I love that, as I was reading your book, and obviously, we're two coaches. So and I think we've done our training at different places. But one of the things that I learned in my coach training, were these four coaching meta questions. And they are, where are you now? Where would you like to be? What's been stopping you? And what are you going to do about it? Probably everything the way that I see the world is like through that lens of those four meta questions, and many of my conversations, go around those. And as I was reading your book, I was like following along with that, and I could see that that's kind of at least my interpretation of your book. And so I'd love to kind of explore those different areas, because I think you touched on them so beautifully throughout the book. So taking stock of where you are and starting out there. And then kind of getting into that, Where do you want to be question? I think you talked a lot about vision and having a clear vision. And one of the things you said was, Why is having a clear and exciting vision so important? Because according to neuroscience research, mental simulations help people turn their thoughts into action. It's why elite athletes like NBA star LeBron James visualize every game in their head before they even step on the court. So I would love to hear more from you about vision, why it's so important, what that does for you whenever you have a clearer vision. Tell me more about that. 

Shannon Talbot  15:11  

So I think the thing is, especially when we become moms, our priorities change, and I get that, but at the same time, too, we, we tell ourselves, oh, we can't dream anymore. Oh, you know, when I thought I'd be this one day, when I grew up that you know what, I'm a mom now. Or I need to make a good stable income. And I want to say no, screw that. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that, I don't know what you care I say on your show, but I was like, screw that. You can have dreams, and you can create that vision. And that's why with my clients, and in the book, I talked about a 10 year vision, because it gives us space to not worry about the how or the Oh, my gosh, this is silly, or I don't I'm not qualified, I'll never get there. So start with a 10 year vision, picture yourself 10 years from now, and what could that look like? And like, push aside any of the negativity, any self doubt any of those little nagging thoughts coming up. Just let yourself dream. Let yourself go there and see what comes up. And I you know, in the book, I walked through an exercise and it's like, picture what you're wearing, picture if you have a car, what does it look like? What was your dream car? Like, let yourself picture the white picket fence, if that's what you've always wanted, or a porch swing or whatever living in the country, it doesn't matter. Just let yourself go there. And picture it, because what happens and you know, like I mentioned in neuroscience, it feeds our subconscious. 

Shannon Talbot  16:33  

So so many of our actions are done without us thinking. If you think about it, you know, if you go hop in the shower, you're not thinking through, you're doing everything by habit, right, you're brushing your teeth, by habit, all these things are done by habit. So the more we can feed our subconscious, the more open it will become, to seeing new ideas and opportunities that won't be there. So for me, for example, I had this 10 year vision of having my own company. I was like, I don't know how the heck it's gonna happen. I'm not like, who am I to start a company? What kind of company would it be? My whole undergrad was business. My master's was business. My experience was business. I didn't have social work or sociology, or you know, any of those psychology courses to help people. But I was like, I'm not going to worry about that. It'll come together. So every day, I wrote down, I'm a successful entrepreneur who helps women live happier, healthier, more fulfilling lives. And about a year and a half after I started writing that down daily, an ad popped up to become a coach. And the funny thing is, I've worked with coaches, I really believed in coaches, but not once had I thought, well Shannon become a coach, until that ad popped up. And then I was like, Oh, that is actually a way to do what I want to do without having to go back to school to become a psychologist, which is what I was, at one point entertaining, right? So by letting yourself scream, by putting it out there writing it down is a really great way to do it, saying it out loud. Another really great way. I know it sounds a bit out there. And some people like my husband's like, what are you doing? What are you doing, but it really works. And it really helps us to feed our subconscious and then be open to things that otherwise we may have just looked away from. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  18:23  

Yeah, and I love how you make the distinction with manifestation that you said manifestation is not wishing for something to happen. And then sitting around, that's luck. Manifestation is believing something and then taking action. And I think that's a really important distinction, right? It's not like, we set this vision for ourselves, and then do nothing about it. We just think it all the time, and then it will suddenly become true. But it's that intentional action taking that is so important. Right? Can you speak a little bit more about that? 

Shannon Talbot  18:55  

Definitely. Yeah. So once you have, you know, a vision, and I'm sure we all know people with big ideas, right? They've got the big ideas, super exciting. They're passionate, but then they don't do anything about it. That drives me crazy sometimes when it's you know, somebody's really excited about an idea and you get on board, and then nothing happens, right? This is the opposite, right? It's getting excited. It's having that big idea, that big dream, but then breaking it down into small, manageable steps. It's you know, if you think of running a marathon, you're not going to go from a non runner to running a marathon in a week, right? It takes training, it takes building up, it takes stamina, and that's the exact same way to look at any dream of yours. Right? It starts with the vision, but then from there, you can look at okay, what's one small step I can take today towards that? And it might seem really, really small. And that's okay, because then that makes the follow through happen. Right? If again, if we don't break our steps down as small as we can, the it'll be overwhelming and we won't do it or we'll give up but taking one small step every single day towards that vision, you are going to get there and you're going to be so excited. And end goal may be different than what you pictured. But that's okay. The fact is that you're moving towards that direction. 

Speaker 1  20:13  

Yeah,

Leanna Laskey McGrath  20:13  

Yeah, and the small step could be walking your kids to school, if that's part of your vision, I think it's important to say like, everybody gets to choose their own vision, right? Like your vision is walking your kids to school, and there is as part of your vision, of course, and there's nothing wrong with that. And that might be your vision, and then someone else's vision might be something totally different. And it's like those little details of it. I love how you ask those questions in the book, because I was going through that exercise. And I was like, wow, I don't think I've ever thought about it like to this level of detail, like getting so clear about it, and being able to see it, I'm a visual person. So being able to really, really see it can make it feel more attainable, right and more real, if we can actually see it happening. 

Shannon Talbot  21:00  

Yeah. And making sure it's is exciting, right has to be exciting. If it's not exciting, you're going to give up when it gets tough, and it will get tough, right? Change is hard transformation is hard. And I probably this big dream of yours is going to take some work. So it has to be something that's going to be motivating enough for you to want to follow through. 

Speaker 1  21:21  

Yeah,

Leanna Laskey McGrath  21:21  

Yeah, love that. And you also talked about within that setting priorities, and being very clear about priorities. And you said at the beginning, you know about your definition of success, and you're clear about your priorities. And in the book, you talk about the big five. And so can you tell us a little bit more about that? 

Shannon Talbot  21:41  

One question I ask all my clients, and I'll do it in some of my talks as well is I'll and I'm you can all do this right now, if you're listening, that you can pause and do this exercise, and it's to write down your top five priorities across your whole life right now. So you can have five total. So across your work, your family, social, your health, anything, pick five. And if you're doing this exercise live, I want you to go back and look at it and see if you made your list, if something related to you is on your list. Eight out of 10 of my clients don't make it onto their own list of priorities, I get why it happens, because we're so busy. And we're caretakers and we're people pleasers, and we look after everybody else. But if you are not on your own list of priorities, you're not going to achieve that vision that you really want. So making sure that you make your list, whether it's time for exercising, or just looking after yourself, or time alone time to think time to be creative, it doesn't matter. But make sure you make your own list. And then the thing about this big five is it will help you set boundaries. Because what will happen is you'll take your big five list. And anytime somebody asks you to do something, or you have a new idea for something, you can check it against this list and see does it align with your list? If yes, great, go for it. If not, does something need to change? Do you need to go back and say no? Do you need to shift your priorities, what might need to happen? But having these priorities can really help you focus your time and your energy. Because again, we have limited time and energy in our lives, especially busy moms. And so you want to be able to focus and align your priorities, with everything going on in your life as much as you can, you know, we can't control everything. And we can't control you know, our kids schedules necessarily, or work asks and things like that, but where you can control things, align them to those five priorities. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  23:37  

I think it's so helpful in decision making. Because like you said, it can kind of be how do I want to spend my time I have this incoming request. Do I want to take that? And the concept of how we often don't make our own list. I think that was a really big driver for me when I was an executive mom trying to do that. It was like, I had these two priorities of my job and my daughter, and then forget about anything else. Right? And so that was like, oh, yeah, also, there's like relationships. Oh, and there's like my health. That was something for me that I found that that was what drove me to find coaching. Because, you know, I was like, I can't sustain this, when I'm not spending any time focusing on myself. And then getting into what's been holding you back. You talked a lot about fear, which I think is such a strong, compelling emotion that we you know, thing that we feel, and whether we realize it or not, we're often letting that emotion drive a lot of our decisions and a lot of the actions that we take or don't take, and you talked about all different kinds of fears, fear of failure, fear of success, et cetera. So I'd love to hear more about your thoughts about that. 

Shannon Talbot  24:58  

Here's another exercise everyone can do and, you know, the book walks you through step by step. But I think what can be really powerful is getting stuff out of our head. i don't know about any of you, you know, when you go and lay it, lay in bed at the end of the day, and all that your thoughts start going through or your worries or, you know, thinking of what you have to do the next day, what you can do with this exercise is take a piece of paper or your computer and list out all your fears, everything. As silly as they sound as big as they sound as scary as they sound, put all of your fears on a piece of paper. And it can be anything, right? Sometimes we have if we look at work, it's we're scared, we're gonna lose our job if we speak up. We're, you know, scared of taking time off work for how we'll be perceived, and maybe we won't get that promotion. Or we don't want to look silly or dumb, or we want to look like we're qualified. And we have all these different fears, and then fear at home, you know, fear of failure, fear of not doing the best we can fear of being judged by other moms who maybe you know, don't work as much, or all of these things, we have so many fears that live in our head. So the best thing is to jot them all down. And looking at them, ask yourself two questions. 

Shannon Talbot  26:10  

The first question is, what is the worst thing that can happen? If this fear comes true, what is the worst thing that can happen? And what I love doing this exercise with people, because we tend to not once we're writing it down, we're like, oh, it's not so bad. You know, in our heads, it's like, I'm going to speak up in a meeting, they're gonna get mad at me. I'm going to be out on the street tomorrow, because I want to have a job. And I'm going to be homeless, right? In our heads. Sometimes we that's how we build things up. Once we write it on paper, we're like, really, by me speaking up at a meeting, like, am I going to be homeless tomorrow? No, likely not. So write down what's the worst case that could happen? And again, it probably it could be like fear of embarrassment. So another fear might come up under the worst case, and that's okay. Right, we're human. 

Shannon Talbot  27:01  

But then the part I love to do, too, is looking at your list of fears, what is the best case that could happen if you overcome them? We don't often think about, okay, if I can fight through this fear, and get over it, what might happen? How might you look in a meeting if you share this brilliant idea? Or you know, if you be I don't know, spontaneous and take your kids out of school one day and go on a fun like picnic or road trip, like last minute, right? Like, you might fear, Oh, no, I'll get in trouble with the school or, but what if it's like just this amazing day that you and your kids remember for years to come? So it's looking at the two sides of fear. And then once you have your list, looking at, okay, what ones Am I willing to try and fight today, or in the coming weeks, and maybe it's something small right to get more comfortable with overcoming fear. And then you can build your way up from there. But really, Your dreams are on the other side of fear. I that's not a quote from me, somebody else says that, but, but it's true, right? And you have to, you have to be willing to put yourself out there and try to overcome them so that you can get on the other side. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  28:10  

One of the things you talked about that really resonates for me is the shame and guilt that comes from not doing something that we feel like we're supposed to, or we should do, but we don't do for whatever reason. And so I think in the exercise that you were talking about, at the beginning, you know, if you write down everything, and you kind of take it to that worst case scenario, I think it also allows us a little bit of compassion for ourselves a little bit of understanding, like you said, like I'm a human, if I am subconsciously believing that me speaking up in a meeting is going to render me homeless, then, like, of course, I'm not going to speak up in the meeting, of course, I'm not going to, right, like, that is a self survival strategy that makes total sense. And so I think it also gives us the opportunity to kind of understand ourselves a little bit more and give ourselves a little bit more grace and compassion and like, oh, okay, and then to your point, once we start consciously thinking about it, we can decide, is that a fear that we believe? Is that a real thing that we're afraid of? And like you said, on the flip side of that what's the best case scenario that could happen here because our brains are so good at thinking about the worst case. And if we don't take some time to consciously think about it, of course, that's where our brains are always going to naturally go, especially if we have kind of, you know, that pattern to do that all the time. And within the fears, I would like to talk more about the three P's that you've talked about quite a bit throughout the book, because I think that a lot of our listeners can relate to these three P's. I describe myself as a recovering perfectionist, and people pleaser so I'd love to hear more about what are the three P's and how do they show up for us? 

Shannon Talbot  29:59  

Yeah, so the three P's are perfectionism, people pleasing, and perception. And when I say perception, I mean caring too much about what other people think of us. And these three qualities are all really great in small doses, right? You know, they, they help us do great work, they help us, you know, make friends. And people can rely on us, and we're trustworthy, and they make us not be jerks. At the end of the day, you know, if we care a bit about what other people think of us, we're not going to be jerks. But the problem is, once we tip the scale and go too far, the other way, they can get in our way, they can hold us back, right, they can have us prioritizing everybody else's needs or thinking we need our work needs to be perfect, which really, the what is the definition of perfect doesn't exist. So I first having awareness of when we use those tendencies, the first step, and then working to overcome them is the second step. So if we look at perfectionism I talked about in the book, you know, there are some jobs and areas where I would like the person to be pretty darn close to being a perfectionist, you know, like a doctor, if they're doing surgery, or somebody who's constructing a bridge or you know, a house, things like that, if it's life or death. Perfectionism has a place. But for everything else, perfectionism gets in our way of actually putting something out there. And again, it's it protects us, as you were talking earlier, it keeps us safe, right? Sometimes we hold back because the fear of judgment comes in again, that perception, so it's like, we maybe don't want to put something out yet, because we fear how it might be perceived, or we think it's not good enough, or that we could do better. And so we just keep procrastinating, and not actually putting it out there, which as Sheryl Sandberg says, Done is better than perfect. So getting something out there, doing the best we can with what we can, and being able to move on can just really help us in taking action and getting closer to whatever, whatever our goals are. 

Shannon Talbot  32:02  

People pleasing, I have a section in the book too, on beliefs and beliefs we have about ourselves that started when we were really young, you know, infants. And as we grew older, we have a lot of beliefs that were formed by our parents, our peers, our teachers, our coaches, and now society, social media, we have all these beliefs about ourselves. And sometimes they're true, and sometimes they're stories that we just start to believe. So they're fiction. And when it comes to people pleasing, some people grew up with the belief that, oh, we have to help others. And, you know, it's, it's more important to help others before ourselves, and things like that. And, you know, maybe that's how their parents raised them or what they saw. And so it can be hard to overcome it. But once you can recognize it, and notice, oh, okay, there I am people pleasing again, and realizing that by you putting other people's needs ahead of your own, you may be using up more of your energy, more of your joy. And you may not be as great a person to be around as if you could prioritize yourself first, and then help others second, right. So it's that whole, putting your oxygen mask on first and the whole, you know, concept behind that, by you looking after yourself, you might be a better version, or happier or more energized version for your kids, your spouse or your work or whoever is in your life, the more you can remember that and do that. 

Shannon Talbot  33:28  

And then perception, that's one of the hardest ones for me. And I think, you know, especially if you work in corporate, you know, there's so many ways we're groomed to only speak a certain way or sell your project a certain way or you know, you always start with the good qualities and things like that, we're groomed to you know, be portrayed a certain way. So that can be a hard one to overcome, but it's just caring less what others think. And one way I got over that was I actually wrote in my phone the ironic thing is, I didn't write it out because I was worried if people saw it in my phone what they would think so I'm like really silly, but now it makes me giggle. But I wrote CLWOT And it was care less what others think. And it was a reminder to myself that you know what, at the end of the day, if you can be authentic and show up as who you are, you will attract the people you're meant to attract in your life right. So friends they're gonna want to see they really you and be attracted to that and if they're not then maybe they weren't the right fit for you anyway right. Same with work if you can show up more authentically at work and have your like colleagues and your managers and things, you know, respect to you and be attracted more to you, you're just going to feel better. So just try not to hide hide your true self so much. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  34:51  

Yeah, I love that. I wrote that down as well because I thought it was hilarious about how you abbreviated abbreviated in your phone because yeah I have like, clearly, this is something I'm working toward. But yeah, it's so true. I think also thinking about like caring less about what others think, but also more about what I think you gave the example of what was the name of the movie with Richard Gere and

Shannon Talbot  35:17  

Runaway Bride.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  35:18  

Yes. And Julia Roberts, she said, I don't even know how I'd like my eggs cooked, because I've always just ordered them, like everybody else. And I think that once we start doing this, and we start trying to kind of let go of the people pleasing a little bit more, let go the perfectionism a little bit more and try to stop caring about what others think it's also like, what do I replace that with and it's really kind of tuning into what we believe and what we want, and what we think about something because we might not even know what we think about something because we're so attuned to what everybody else thinks and what everybody else might want, before we even take the time to check in with ourselves. And it's a real exercise and practice of having to check back in and say, oh, wait a minute, I don't need to think about what everyone here is thinking about first, what do I think about this? How am I feeling about how I'm showing up and what we're talking about here. 

Shannon Talbot  36:19  

And it can be so exhausting too so during COVID, for example, I was really struggling, I was working in advertising, working really long hours, my kids were home. You know, I'd see people posting on Instagram about how they have all this time. And they're making sourdough bread and all that stuff. And I was like, I was in a very kind of angry state and resentful state. And every morning was a struggle to get up and try and get you know, presentable for the camera. And it was a real challenge. I was extremely burnt out. But I'd get on camera. And if you asked me how I was, I'd be like, I'm great. How are you today? No one knew no one knew until finally, I was like, You know what, this is exhausting. This is so tiring, pretending to be okay for everyone all the time, that one day I just showed up. And I was like, You know what, I'm having a really crappy week, and I'm exhausted and, and the woman on my team, she started crying. And she opened up about how what was going on with her. And we had this like, really nice bonding moment. That then I was like, You know what, we are human beings, we can share our emotions, we can share the tough times, we don't have to be strong or look like we have our stuff together all the time. And once I made that switch, and started to you know, open up a bit more and reveal more of myself, my relationships actually got stronger at work. And I think you know, there'd been this wall before where I just presented myself a certain way. And I was a leader and I had to act a certain way. And then this wall came down a bit. And then people felt Oh, I can talk to Shannon too. And it was really lovely. And then I actually got a bit more of my energy back because I wasn't pretending to be happy and Okay, all the time. I think that's the other side of it too, right? If we're always pretending, or we're doing it a lot, we're really using our energy and our mental capacity. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  38:18  

I 100% agree. I remember people saying like, when I become a mom, I want to do it like you. And I'm like, what? I'm terrible at this. Like what? And it was like a wake up call of man, I don't want to put out there in the world that this is possible. Because it's not right. Because this kind of idea that we have that we can have a career where we're working all the time, and we're super workaholics and very successful. And we are super successful at home with our kids and that we never feel anything but pure happiness and joy. It's just not true. It's not true. And I think you know, we tend to get down on ourselves like, I should just be feeling fine about this, I should be able to handle this, I should be able to do this. And then we feel like we need to project that because of that should version, right, and belief. And so we need to show everybody that I'm fine. I can do all of this and I can handle it. And then what we're doing is we're perpetuating that idea that that's even possible when it is absolutely not. We're gonna have bad days. I mean, sure, some days are gonna feel great. And we're gonna feel happiness and joy for more of the day than we don't. But there are hard days and hard hours and hard times. And there's no reason for us to try and hide that as much as we do. And like you said, drain our energy by keeping up that facade.

Shannon Talbot  38:18  

Exactly. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  38:22  

I think that one of the things you talked about was confidence, and that we  don't actually know how confident somebody else is right? Like we see somebody else. We think like everybody else is walking around, and they're so confident. But I'm the only one struggling and not feeling confident, but we don't know if how they feel on the inside. And I love how you talked about Mel Robbins' example of kind of feeling the anxiety and doing it anyway. So can you speak more to that kind of the confidence and the being scared and not having it all together and taking steps forward?

Shannon Talbot  40:32  

I think I'm gonna I'll use another personal example. I don't know if this one made it into the book. I don't think so because I was finishing the book right around the time. But I talk about in the book, I had two secret silly dreams. And they were I'm gonna ruin it. Spoiler alert, but they were to be a speaker, I really wanted to be a motivational speaker. And I really wanted to be an author. And I had those dreams. Well, the author since I was like 10, and the speaker happened in high school. But then I immediately told myself, those aren't real jobs, you can't make money from speaking and writing. And no you got to go to business school and get a good, you know, degree and have a good career path. So I put them aside. But they were always there. It was always like, okay, they're just at the back of my mind. And whenever I did have a speaking part at work, I loved it. Like I was so passionate if I got to present or things like that, even though it's scary, right? So I think that's the difference. And Mel Robbins talks about that, too. She'll say, every time she speaks, or she'll go on a TV show, or whatever she does, she's so scared. And she's like, her anxiety is high. But you get out there and you do it anyway. And then you feel this incredible high. So I think that's the difference. So it's not looking at how you feel leading up to something it's looking at, how do you feel after you've done it? Can you push yourself through that? Whatever it is, again, it could be I don't know, maybe you've wanted to be an artist and highlight your art sell your art or something. But that's really scary to you. It's like, okay, once you've done it, once you've put it out there you have your first sale, how thrilling could that feel? So it's feeling the fear, again, going back to the feeling the fear and doing it anyway. 

Shannon Talbot  42:09  

And my example goes back to so I developed, well I have anxiety. But I developed, my anxiety went really high during COVID. So I developed more social anxiety during COVID. Even though I love being social. It was a really strange thing to go through. But my social anxiety really skyrocketed during COVID. And I got asked to do to speak at a conference a year ago on burnout. And they flew me, it was to another city in Canada. They flew me there and put me up in a hotel. And it was a conference with 600 attendees. Big Room. And I was wedged between two really, really people who've been speaking for you know, 25 years. This is their been their career. And I was wedged between them. I was like oh, okay, great, but at the same time, like Oh, my goodness, you know, I've only been speaking for a few years and, and everything. So I went to board the plane and I flew out the day before, I went to board the plane and a wave of nausea came over me. And had to run to the washroom. I didn't get sick, but I felt it. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I don't think I can get on the plane. And then the again being like a people pleaser and all this what came next to was, oh my gosh, I'm gonna let them down. It wasn't even about doing it was just I was like, No, I have to get there. I can't not show up or them not have a speaker. And so I got there. I did all the things I exercised I meditated. I ate really healthy. I was, you know, doing all the things and it still was there. The next morning still was there. I was like, okay, I can do this. I get to the event. And I'm feeling sick. I'm feeling so sick. I've never had this experience in my life. I get to the event, I walk into the conference room, it's gone. Like that. I'm on. I feel great. I'm okay. I go I meet the organizers. I get my microphone, like go to the green room, go out on stage. Loved every second funny power went out soon as I got on. So I did joke about that, like all these things. Finish it, I stay for lunch meet some of the people, fly back home later. And I was on cloud nine. It was one of the highest highs of my career to date. And it's interesting because I went and saw my doctor shortly after to say, Oh my gosh, like should I be taking anxiety meds, you know, blah, blah. And he goes, I think you should stop speaking. And I went, nope, not a possibility. He's like, But oh my gosh, you had so much anxiety. I'm like, but it's okay. It went away. And it was like I did it. And it was so worth it. And so I think that's the thing, right? I wasn't willing to not do it, but it was the most anxiety I've ever felt in my life. And you know, since then I haven't had an episode like that. But like I still get super anxious over things. I still get nervous. And I think that's just normal and it may never go away and we have to just go with it and portray the confidence sometimes and let that catch up to us and the more we do something, the more natural it will feel.

Speaker 1  45:04  

Yeah, the confidence comes from the practice and the doing of it. 

Shannon Talbot  45:08  

Yeah, exactly. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  45:10  

I love what you're saying here. Because, number one, if we let how we feel before something, to dictate our actions all the time, we would never do anything. I never feel like working out leading up to working out, I'm like, I gotta go do this thing. Right. But afterwards, I feel so great. And I'm so glad that I did that. So I think the reminder of thinking about how we're gonna feel after, and making sure that we check in with that part of us rather than like, where we're at right now and what we might be feeling now. And also, that I think it's so important to be tuned into our bodies and to take clues from you know, like, what should we do, but also knowing that sometimes our bodies are doing these things before and it's going to be so different afterwards. And so really staying focused on that. I think that's such a really great point for everybody, no matter how big like going on a stage in front of 600 people or small like, jumping on the Peloton for 20 minutes, right? 

Shannon Talbot  46:15  

Yes, the fear may never ever go away, but it will quiet down.

Shannon Talbot  46:19  

Yeah. And the fear is not a signal that you should not do it all the time. Sometimes it might be right if you're about to jump off a cliff or something. But I like how you make that distinction in your book if you're doing something that's actually life threatening, that's in a different bucket. 

Shannon Talbot  46:34  

Yes, exactly. I have one question I asked myself. So you can all do this, you can come up with one question. To see what is your limit you don't want to pass? So for me for fear. I have a question I asked myself. That is, Will I die from doing this? And that's my limit. And you may not be there and that's okay. I'm, I'm strange that way, you know, I'm more open to fear. So it doesn't have to be that extreme. But that is my question. But it also it's kind of funny, because you know, I'll look at skydiving. And I know a lot of people skydive, it's super safe. But for me, I'm like, Nope, I could die. I'm not ever going to skydive. So again, everyone has their own limits, and you're entitled to your own limits, you're entitled to what you'll cross or not cross, it's up to you. No one gets to tell you what is okay or not okay. But sometimes having that upper limit can just help you and help push you a little bit to overcome some of those fears, too. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  47:28  

Yeah, well, I think we are talking about and we've kind of talked about throughout the fourth meta question of, What are you going to do about it? Because one of the things I love about your book is that it's filled with lots of action, and lots of exercises, and lots of motivation to really kind of make those positive changes in our lives toward creating the career and lives of our dreams. And so it's really throughout the book, and throughout our conversation of these exercises that we can do to you know, once we decide, here's our vision, here's what we want for our lives, we identify what's been stopping us, then we can get clear about what we want to do about it and create that kind of action plan and take those steps. One of those stories that I love that you shared about action and doing scary things was about when you contacted the speaker's bureau of Canada. So would you mind sharing that story?

Shannon Talbot  48:23  

You know, I mentioned one of the dreams I had was to become a speaker. And so when I started my business, I started with coaching and coaching professionals. But then I really wanted to get into speaking and I wanted that to be a big part of my business as well. So I was going through, you know, online and speak their speaker bureaus that help book speakers for speaking engagements. So I found the speaker's bureau of Canada, and I wrote them an email. And what I wanted to know was what I had to start working on now. So that was like if you're going for a job promotion, right? Like, what are the steps I need to take now? What do I need to start building so that I can become a speaker on their, on their bureau? So I, you know, wrote out some questions and said, I'd love to talk to you and learn more, because I really want to be a speaker. And the head of the organization said, Oh, can I call you? I'm like, Sure. So he calls me I think I'm literally in week two or three of starting my own business, okay, so it's very fresh. He calls me, we have a chat. And at the end of the chat, he goes, Okay, I'm gonna put you on our Bureau as a speaker. And I went, Wait, what? Like, no, like, no wonder she was calling to find out what I need to do to start to become a speaker and he goes no, like listening to you talk hearing about your corporate experience. And he goes, You, yeah, I think you're ready. And so I'll send you the information you need to complete and we're going to put you on our on our bureau list. And I was so excited and I you know, I got off. I called my parents I told them I was like, you know, a little kid again, getting a gold star or something. And I think it just goes to show, that sometimes we just need to ask, we just need to ask, we just need to put ourselves out there. And, you know what had he said, you know, he could have said, here are the things you need to start working on. And that would have been totally okay. Because that was the whole purpose of my conversation with him. But sometimes it can go even better than you would ever imagine. And it just gives you that like, super high excited feeling. So you never know, until you put yourself out there and ask the questions. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  50:25  

Yeah, I think that's a testament to your exercise about worst case and best case scenario. Because you might not have even envisioned this best case scenario, but it happened and had you not put yourself out there, had you not done something scary, and reached out to them, then that never would have happened, right? When you talk in the book about how women especially tend to hold ourselves back from promotions, we will only go for a promotion if we feel 100% qualified, we meet 100% of the qualifications, whereas men will go when they they meet 60%. And I love how you said, there's like a person who's paid to go through these applications and make that decision, you don't need to make that decision. And so I think when it comes to action, it's like, you know, we're holding ourselves back so often because of the fears that we talked about. And because you know, of the worst case scenarios we're imagining in our heads, or because we just decide, oh, I'm not qualified, I'm not good enough. I'm not ready. So I'm curious if you could talk a little bit more about that about how we self censor, hold ourselves back from taking the necessary actions to getting there. 

Shannon Talbot  51:45  

I do this with some of my clients. I'm not in this realm as much anymore with with clients, but I used to help you know them with job searching and applying for jobs and things like that. You go through the job requirements and all the bullets and I'd see my clients be like, Oh, I don't have that one. Okay, I'm not going to apply. And on the other side, I don't know how many can relate to this. But I've seen job descriptions are being written in, you know, a minute, people aren't even paying attention to what it is they use an old job description, they barely update it, it really doesn't have as much meaning as sometimes people think it might. But then if you're on the other side, you're you're wanting to believe that it's true to its word. So you're thinking, Oh, my gosh, I have to meet every single one of these criteria. And it's like in reality, you know, if you were hiring somebody, what are you going to look for in a candidate first? I know personally, when I was hiring people I looked for fit, fit was number one. If they were open to learning new things, and open to trying and they had a great attitude, that was number two, then I would go to the qualification. So if everyone was equal on the others, then yes, then I might look at the qualifications and see, okay, who meets the most of them. But as I talked about in the book, and as you mentioned, we tend to, we tend to self I forget the word I use, but you know, disqualify ourselves before we even get there. And it's like, what if you stopped doing that? What if you start just going for those opportunities, let the person who's paid to disqualify you versus you, and you never know what's gonna happen. 

Shannon Talbot  53:19  

And when I share a story too, so when I wanted more balance in my life, I was traveling a lot for work. And just I felt too guilty for being away for too many of the moments with my kids. And I knew I had to change that. So I moved companies and I moved to another bank, where I had less responsibility. And I went down in job title. So I went from a director to a senior manager, and up in money, but nobody sees how much money you make, right? So for me, it was like, Okay, I'm being demoted. So I told myself, again, if you go back to your definition of success, I did it because I wanted more balance in my life and that I got, but in my head, I was still focused on titles, and I was demoted. And then I really started to lose my confidence. And so at work, I wasn't showing up as confidently. I wasn't speaking up as much and all this stuff. And then it came to a point where I knew it was time to leave, it wasn't the right fit, and I wasn't showing up authentically and stuff anyway. And next thing, you know, I get a call from a recruiter to be a VP at a call center, which I've never worked in call centers. I've never worked in operations. They want me to be a VP at a call center. I went to two interviews, I was second. And that blew my mind because I was like, I don't have the experience. I've never worked in a call center. But they were looking at the transferable skills. They were looking for other things, and that too, and yes, I didn't get it. But it started to build up my confidence again to be like, Oh my gosh, okay, maybe I am more capable than I'm giving myself credit to. And so again, not holding yourself back because of how you feel or how your confidence may be at that time and letting somebody else build you up and do the work for you.

Shannon Talbot  55:02  

There's always two sides in a relationship, right. So like what the other side might be looking for, may not be totally clear in the job description, right, or you may not think of that, and they may see something in you that that you don't see. And so whenever we assume that we're not going to have what they want, we might be totally wrong, just like we talked about earlier in the book about rejection. And that oftentimes, whenever we don't get a job, or we don't get a partner that we're looking for, or whatever, like we don't get an opportunity on a project, that a lot of times, it just comes down to what that other person is looking for, fit, timing, so many other factors. And we always put it back to ourselves, right, that we must have done something wrong. But the reality is, is that what they're looking for, and what we're looking for may align, it might not. And so the only way we're going to find out is to try. And the worst thing that could usually happen is that it doesn't work out and we learn, you know, and maybe even build some confidence, like you said, if you're second in the process, but when we hold ourselves back from it in the first place, we don't have that opportunity to learn anything really, right. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  56:18  

So the action part is woven throughout. And it's been woven throughout our conversation. And I think lots of really great exercises, I actually bookmarked, I did some of them, and then I bookmarked some to go back to and I'm excited to do some more of the exercises that you have outlined in the book. I am curious, is there anything I haven't asked you or anything that you want to share with our listeners as they are thinking about their dream lives and careers? 

Shannon Talbot  56:47  

I'll just leave you with one last thought. I like to look at any change as a renovation. So whether you've lived through a renovation, or you've seen one on TV, it's okay, doesn't matter. But it starts with a vision. So let's say you're renovating your kitchen or your bathroom, you have a vision of what you want the end result to be, then what happens next? It's messy demolition, you know, potentially, it's going to cost more, take more time, not feel good, be uncomfortable, you might have to move out or wash your dishes in the bathtub, or who knows, right? There's a lot of mess. But you usually don't give up in the middle of a home renovation, you keep going because the end product's worth it. And so I just want all of you to remember that no matter what you're going through in your life personally or professionally, messy doesn't feel great, change is hard, things will likely feel worse before they get better. But that's why having the vision is so important. And keeping taking action towards that vision will just make sure that you still go with through with it because the end result will be so worth it. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  57:50  

Yes, I love that so beautifully said and thank you so so much for getting past your fears and writing the book and for coming here today and talking with all of us. I know I feel motivated. I hope that everybody who's listening feels motivated and goes and picks up your book Breaking Free. And where can everybody find you, Shannon? Let's say that they are looking for a coach looking to work with somebody or they read your book and they just love it. Where can we find you?

Shannon Talbot  58:17  

My website is www.ShannanTalbot.com. You can also follow me I'm quite active on LinkedIn, Shannon Talbot, Instagram, ShannonTalbot_coaching. So I'd love for you to follow me connect. If you read the book, send me a message. I'd love to hear about your experiences and your thoughts.

Shannon Talbot  58:35  

Wonderful. Well, everyone reach out to Shannon and connect with her pick up her book. And thank you so so much, Shannon, for coming here and talking with us today. Really appreciate all of your wonderful insights.

Shannon Talbot  58:46  

Thanks so much for having me. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  58:48  

Absolutely. All right. Well, thanks everybody for listening today and we will see you all next week.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  58:58  

Thanks so much for tuning into the executive coach for moms podcast. Please like subscribe or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care.