Conquering Imposter Syndrome: Learning to Silence Limiting Beliefs and Claim the Space We've Earned - with Emily-Rose Barry

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:08  

Welcome to the executive coach for moms podcast where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host Leanna Lasky McGrath, former tech exec turned full time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic, and certified executive coach. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:28  

Hi, everyone! Welcome back to the show. Today I have a special guest. I'm so excited to talk with Emily-Rose Barry today about imposter syndrome. Whenever we were kind of reviewing topics to discuss, Emily-Rose said that she has kind of figured out how to get through imposter syndrome. And I know that's something that a lot of us can relate to. And so I'm really excited to hear what she has to say about this today. So welcome, Emily-Rose, thanks so much for being here!

Emily-Rose Barry  1:03  

Thanks for having me, Leanna! Yes, I'm very excited to talk about how I fully talked myself out of having imposter syndrome, because I think everyone should talk themselves out of it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:13  

Absolutely. Well, can you introduce yourself Emily-Rose, kind of tell everybody who you are what you're doing in the world?

Emily-Rose Barry  1:19  

Sure. I am Emily-Rose Barry. Well, you already said that. Work - I'm a vice president of products for an edtech company. I've spent a little over 10 years, I think in education, technology and various different roles. I'm also a mom, I have two kids. I've got two boys six and eight. I'm joining you from their playroom. So I'm surrounded by dinosaurs and Legos, because that's how that goes. And I think that's pretty much it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:48  

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being here. So to kind of start off, I would love to just define imposter syndrome, like how do you define it? I looked up some definitions on the Google's as well. And then I have my own definition of it. So I'd love to hear what is imposter syndrome mean to you?

Emily-Rose Barry  2:07  

Well, my personal experience with it, I think, is very tied to my own personal experience with anxiety, which is probably a theme that'll come up often in this conversation, because it kind of has the same characteristics to me of like having some kind of intrusive and pervasive thinking that is not necessarily based in reality, about your own performance and skills and knowledge in your job. That's been my experience with it. What did the Google's tell you though?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  2:40  

So the Google said imposter syndrome is the condition of feeling anxious, and not experiencing success internally, despite being high performing in external objective ways. This condition often results in people feeling like a fraud or a phony and doubting their abilities. And then another definition that I thought I related to is imposter syndrome is that uncomfortable feeling you experience when you think you're under qualified, and incompetent, you might look around and assume everyone knows what they're doing except for you. And if you achieve something good, you'll chalk your accomplishments up to good luck. So those really resonated with me. And I think the way that I have experienced is definitely that assumption that everybody else knows more than me. So I have coached a lot of people. And I think this comes up in one way or another. It's not always named as imposter syndrome. But it comes up with every single client that I have worked with women. And then I read this book on it a few years ago called The Secret thoughts of successful women. One of my biggest takeaways from that book was Meryl Streep believes that she's not a good star like she, everyone's going to find out that I don't actually know how to act. And so I think about that, man, if Meryl Streep doesn't think she's a great actor, like would, you know, all the rest of us? Of course we're gonna feel...

Emily-Rose Barry  4:10  

It doesn't get more objective than multiple Academy Awards saying you're a good actress!

Leanna Laskey McGrath  4:18  

Right, exactly. But it was good luck or somebody else, you know, it's great direction or great production, that kind of thing. 

Emily-Rose Barry  4:25  

Yeah. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  4:25  

The other thing I found on the Google that I thought was really interesting is that there are five imposter syndrome types. I didn't know about this, but all of these are very relatable, I think, perfectionist, superhuman natural genius soloist an expert. And so I think each one of them kind of depending on which one is most prevalent for somebody, I think it would show up a little bit different in each person. But I think that a lot of what I see in my clients is a lot of kind of feeling this pressure to overwork themselves to continue the facade, right? Like, I believe that someone's going to find out that they made a big mistake hiring me, or that I don't actually know what I'm talking about. And that cannot happen. And so I have to get like, I have to outwork that potential thing happening, I have to just work so hard. And then, you know, working all hours of the day and night working through maternity leaves, feeling like I have to control what everybody else like thinks of me, and that everybody else like right into news to have a high opinion of me. And so the way I could do that best is just to like put in the hours. So I see that a lot. How does it show up? Or how did it show up for you?

Emily-Rose Barry  5:50  

That's a really interesting example. I love hearing about other people's experiences with it. Because it's, I mean, it's no surprise that we all have different personalities, backgrounds, experiences, tendencies. So how we experience imposter syndrome is always going to feel a little bit different. That example, is not how it was for me. But I get the tendency to confuse performance with output. It's not about what I bring to the table or the quality of the work I do. But it's about how much I can churn out and how efficient I can be. And if I can just distract people with that, then maybe they won't notice that actually, I'm making bad decisions, or I don't know, what I'm talking about is the example that you gave, that's really painful to hear that someone's going through that

Leanna Laskey McGrath  6:35  

Lots of people, but I think it's that and I think it's also a proof to a person self, right, like, prove to myself that I am doing everything possible. Right?

Emily-Rose Barry  6:46  

Right. It won't be for lack of effort. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  6:48  

Exactly. 

Emily-Rose Barry  6:49  

For me, I think you were talking a little bit earlier. I don't know if it was Meryl Streep, who said like, it must have been luck. But that was probably my experience with it over the years. So I started my career in education, I was a teacher. And then I moved into the world of technology. And in the time that I've worked in tech, I mean, it's been, it's been over 10 years, and I was promoted very regularly was like, not a year or two ago by that I wasn't promoted. Now, a lot of that had to do with the fact that I joined a company that was kind of like in its phase of super growth, right, I got in early when is one of the first few employees. And then as new opportunities became available, as we expanded, you know, it was natural to move people from within the company into those roles. And so there probably was a little bit of luck attached to that. Like, if I had been at a more mature company that had more structured org charts and growth paths, maybe I wouldn't have been given those opportunities. But my experience with it at the time was, well, this is the first time that I'm doing something like this. And I don't really understand why someone thinks that I can do it. And because I've got all of these reasons in my head that seem like I see other people doing that job, and they have XYZ background, and I don't have that background. And so there's no way that I can do what they did. Like it was very much an archetypal type of thinking, where I would look at one person who I thought was doing their job really well. And I would convince myself that because I did not have that exact same background as them that I wouldn't be able to do it. And so therefore, I was confused. When people gave me opportunities. I was confused, and worried that I was going to let them down. It was kind of that feeling of why do you think that I should get this? Why do you think I should do that, you know, you're putting a lot of faith in me. And if I screw it up, that's gonna feel so bad, because I look up to you. Like, I can have perspective on that now because I you know, I'm almost 40. And I'm looking at myself and like her late 20s, early 30s. And I get why I felt that way. But I have the perspective now that as someone who hires does a lot of hiring, and a lot of seeing who I can help grow their own career, the reality is that no one does that randomly, right? You're not going out there and just being like, oh, random person, I don't know if you're gonna be good at this, but throw you in exactly like that would be bad for the success of the company. You only invest in people that you really think are going to do a good job. And you have some evidence behind that. Right. So I look back on it now. And I'm like Emily Rose, you were totally deserving of those opportunities and you killed it in those opportunities. How sad that you wasted time feeling worried about not living up to what people thought you could accomplish. They, they thought you could accomplish it because you had already demonstrated 10 ways that you could.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  10:01  

Yeah, so that feeling of being you described it as worry and like being worried that you would let someone down, you would let that person down that right gave you that opportunity? How did that impact your output? Or What actions did you take as a result of that feeling?

Emily-Rose Barry  10:18  

I think that there have been many times in my career where I had lacking confidence in myself and my own abilities, I'm talking about abilities, skills and knowledge here, I'm trying to be very careful about that. Because it's not about motivation, or how much work you do or how committed you are, like, let's put those things off to the side. Because you can be all of those things and still be really shitty at your job. So it's more about like, let's focus on real performance, like the measurable things that are going to have an impact on the business and that people are going to measure you by the concerns that I had, I think sometimes let me not have confidence in my own abilities. And therefore, there were probably times where everyone suffered because I had an idea, or I had a way to solve the problem, or, you know, I saw an opportunity for the business, and I didn't feel comfortable necessarily kind of owning it, and like rising to the occasion of it, because I had this self limiting thinking of, you're not ready for that, or who do you think you are. And so it's more like I think about the things that I missed when I was fully capable and ready, because I kind of tucked myself down and slowed myself down, put my own walls in front of me and said, Don't go further than this. And that's really, really unfortunate. And it's unfortunate, not only for you, but for everyone you're working for, you're actually not bringing your whole self to your role, when you are limiting yourself with that kind of thinking. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  11:55  

Yeah, yeah, I think you've probably heard that in my conversation with Annemieke a little bit a little while back on the podcast, that we both experienced that as well like holding ourselves back thinking, I have this idea, or I want to say this thing, but it sounds stupid, like, Am I qualified to make that assessment? It's so different from whatever everybody else is thinking. So, you know, and kind of questioning ourselves. And for me, at least, it was like, wow, I got put in this role, which I know I earned. But you know, I was promoted into this role. And I don't want them to look at me and be like, Oh, God, I made such a big mistake by putting you in this role, because you have like these terrible ideas, right? 

Emily-Rose Barry  12:38  

Yep! I have so many thoughts running through my head, so many one is, I did love that podcast episode with Annemieke and you and that kind of story of feeling like you were put into something maybe prematurely or you know, before you felt like you were ready. The crazy thing is that this image that I have of you sitting at the boardroom and saying I've got this idea, but it's counter to what everyone else thinks, or I don't know, if everyone's gonna think I'm stupid. I know that men and women both have the feelings of imposter syndrome. I know that like, you know, self doubt is just, it's ubiquitous, you know, just not gender related, or however, my personal anecdotal experience with this has been that it's only women who hold themselves back in that way. I don't know if there's any, like research or anything out there, I'm just talking about my personal experience has been, I have never had this conversation with a man where a man is saying, like, I had an idea, and I didn't know if it would be good or received well, and so therefore, I held it back. Like I've been in so many experiences in my career, where men just feel so comfortable to say whatever is on their mind, you know, not really worrying about how people are going to take it or if it's the right way, approach or you know, anything like that any of these self limiting thoughts that we do that like our experiences as women, we're like, Oh, I better be quiet. Unless I'm 100% sure that this is the right thing, you know. And that's what I worry about with imposter syndrome. And that's one of the biggest reasons I've talked myself out of it, I think, is because the more years that I've had more and more experiences at that higher level of the organizational chart, having, you know, those big conversations where the big decisions are made, and just seeing that men don't really hold back, they just don't Liana, at least not in my experience. And you know, sometimes they don't have good ideas. And sometimes what they're saying is oppositional and encounter are productive to the conversation or like any of the things that we would worry about, but they don't hold themselves back. And so I worry that women are allowing this self limiting talk, to actually open the door for more and more decisions to just be made by men without our input.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  14:58  

Yeah, I would agree. And I think as you were saying that I was thinking about, I thought of two things that kind of, I think contribute to that. And I've seen tons of research about the way that women are judged on their performance, being very different from the way that men are. It's a very real fear. And also, I've read a lot of negotiation research, and basically that, you know, women are much more afraid to negotiate, and, you know, than men are and much less inclined to, and I think that that's a few different things with kind of our socialization, and what we learn as we are growing up, and you know, and entering our workplaces. And one of those is, you know, we, as women are taught to kind of always put others first that we're kind of responsible for the feelings of everyone around us. And so if we make someone angry or upset, we make them angry or upset, right? Like, yeah, I feel like it's because of us when everybody is responsible for their own feelings, right? Whereas I think with men that's different. And the way that men are socialized, is generally that like anger is the only emotion that's allowed to be expressed. And also, like, they're only responsible for themselves, right? That's actually what my sister and I talked a lot about with our Barbie movie debrief, that kind of the way that our society is right now, it's not really benefiting men or women, right? Because it's like, so extreme in both ways, right? That shows up a lot. Because, right, we are so concerned about how they're thinking about us. But we can never say that we care about what they think or we're vain. But really, we really care what they think about. And so I think that's one reason why we see it, I think another reason why we see it is that we tend to have and this is something I've seen a lot of coaching. So we tend to have this like all or nothing thinking. So it's like, an idea that we bring to the table is going to be either the most amazing idea, and everybody's going to jump on it immediately and like want to run with it, and then just be so happy that we're on the team. Like that's one option. And the other option is that this idea is going to be terrible. And everybody's going to think that we're the stupidest person in the room. And what the hell are we doing there? We don't belong there. And it's kind of like, our brains only allow us those two options, right? And I think a lot of times, yeah, there's an opportunity for like an invitation somewhere in the middle of that spectrum, or somewhere along that spectrum, right, where maybe we could offer an idea, and it could be just okay, or pretty good. But that's not really like an option in our minds.

Emily-Rose Barry  17:40  

Yeah. That makes me think of how important it is for, I think, organizations to think about this and create structures that make people feel safe to get feedback, and to fail occasionally, you know, like, if you're working in a company that doesn't have a really great, like structured performance management system, for example. And this is very common in startups. Like, we're just trying to get through to next week, like we're not really at the point yet that we're thinking about, Okay, what's going to be our Russ robust, ongoing system for feedback and improvement. But in those situations, you really leave people open to kind of sitting around wondering, how am I doing? Well, how did everybody think about that? What does failure look like? Is it going to be safe to fail? Will I get feedback that helps me grow? Or will I get feedback that says, Please pack your bags, we don't want you here anymore. And that's really scary. I think that was something in my past that I did really struggle with was, I would go years or months or you know, a period of time just not getting any feedback at all. And then I would spin in my head, okay, no one's saying I'm doing bad, and nobody's firing me. But also, no one is saying that was good that you open your mouth at that meeting and had that idea, or here are some things that you're really excelling at. And we want to see more of that. It was kind of like I felt like I was left to my own devices at times. And in retrospect, again, it's all about this perspective, right? In retrospect, I'm looking back and I'm like, Well, no one gave you feedback because you were doing well. Like they didn't feel like they needed to, to sit down and say, Okay, we really got to talk about this. Because, you know, if you weren't doing well, you would have known about it and I didn't. But in the moment, in absence of more information, I totally was spinning in my head just kind of coming up with all these things of like, maybe it was so bad, the way I handled the situation that like no one even knows how to tell me how bad it was. Maybe that's how bad it is. And so it really is on the organization, I think to create a culture where on the one hand, everyone has dedicated time and space to receive feedback in ways that help you grow, whether it's positive or negative, like we forget about people who are doing well in their jobs, you can't just assume, Oh, she's doing great. So we don't have to talk about her performance, like, we need to check in and affirm what's going well, but also provide room for constructive feedback, because everybody can grow, right. But then on the other side, it's also about creating a culture where it's okay for everyone in the room to come up with ideas, and to problem solve together, and that some of them are going to land, some of them are going to work. But like, it's not about anybody personally, like there's a lot of evidence out there that organizations just run better when we have a real diversity of thought coming into the decision making, right? You never want to be having an echo chamber, where you've just got the same people bringing the same perspectives to every problem and trying to solve them in the same ways over and over again, you want the diversity of thought. And the reality is that because it's so ubiquitous, for people to struggle with these feelings of self doubt and self worth in their roles, you have to have a culture that makes them feel safe to open their mouths. Yeah. And that's another thing that you can't ignore as being on the onus of the organization, and not necessarily the individual to get over it themselves.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  21:16  

Yeah, I totally agree, I think is the responsibility of the organization to create safety. And I think safety to fail as well. We're so afraid of failure. I can think of times I did this, before I was in the workforce, when I was a kid, where I was like, I don't want to say the wrong thing. So I'm just gonna not say anything at all. And it was pretty quiet kid, because I didn't want to be judged for saying the wrong thing, or like, upset anybody with what I said. But I think about where we are now, with innovation, we have to be trying things failing, failing forward constantly, or we're not going to be able to keep up our companies are not going to be successful with the pace of innovation right now. And so it's on the companies to create the safe environment if they want to thrive, so that they can encourage people to share their ideas, and that they can make it okay, rewarding failure, you know, air quotes, failure, but like a failed idea. I think the other thing as you were talking about that, I was thinking that, um, I find that a lot of women especially equate their ideas with themselves. So it's like, if I put my idea out there, and it's deemed not a good idea, then like, that means that I am not good, right? Like, there's something wrong with me. Yeah, I think we have kind of this entanglement with any idea that comes from us. And so the reflection of that ends up being a reflection on our worth, and our value to the organization.

Emily-Rose Barry  22:55  

Yeah, and I think getting over that just comes with practice, it feels a lot like when people are in therapy for like, extreme fears, like this fear of like spiders, and like, you, you do the thing where like, you move the spider a little closer, a little closer, a little closer, it's kind of the same thing where like, the more you try out, just bringing your full self to the role, not holding yourself back, feeling confident in the places where you're like, you know, what my background and experience tells me, this is an idea that's at least worth us considering, and people will take it or they won't, but I'm gonna put it out there. And we'll see what happens, the more you do that, and the more you see that, like, what often happens is the gray area in the middle that you referenced earlier, where like, you know, I put myself out there, and it didn't land. And guess what we all moved on with our day. Like, I didn't get fired, you know, that worst case scenario thinking, I'm so glad you brought up you as a child, because I've actually been going through this with my kid to, I'm really seeing now that I'm a parent, how much these thought patterns start at a very, very young age. And, you know, back to everyone having their own personality and tendencies, and those really start getting baked early on. Right. And I know, I was a perfectionist, like I came out the womb, like did I do a good enough job being born, you know?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  24:21  

Did you give me an A on delivery?

Emily-Rose Barry  24:23  

Actually, I would have gotten a very poor grade on being born, my mother would tell you, but at any rate, these are really long term thought patterns, I guess is what I'm getting at. And like, in our generation, it's not like we were necessarily getting therapist at a young age or like, you know, our parents did such great jobs with the information they had, but they weren't like, let me look at these destructive thought patterns that my child might have that will hold them back later in life and like, you know, read a bunch of self help books and talk to their own therapist and figure out how I can help them. But like our generation tends to do that as parents right and So I see my oldest son has a lot of anxiety and basically always has. And so helping him through his own anxiety and like doing the textbooks things to help him undo that thought pattern has really helped me on the other side, right. But a lot, a thing that I say a lot with him is, are we doing worst case scenario thinking right now? Are we just kind of assuming that the worst thing that could happen is going to happen? Yes, that's what we're doing. So let's see if we can flip it, what would be the best thing that could happen? And what are some other things that could happen in between? And now that we've got that whole list of possibilities, how much control do you have over what will occur? None, but everything's gonna be okay. Right. And the chances of that worst case scenario thing happening compared to all the others is actually a lot smaller, right? So I'm hoping that starting to, like, work through that with him as a child, like, maybe he'll have that tool and be better at it as he's older, because I'm already looking at him like, Okay, you're totally going to be prone to having the same struggles that I had, as I was kind of in early in my professional career, and just in with life in general. But it takes a lot of practice to look your fear in the face, say, I'm terrified that I'm going to fail, and everyone's going to hate me, and I'm going to lose my job. And to try it anyway. And to see, okay, it didn't happen. Okay. That's one example in my pocket that I need to remember. Yeah, for the next time, I'm feeling this fear. And then you just do it enough times that it doesn't feel scary anymore. But it takes time it takes exposure, for sure.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  26:38  

Yeah, I think about like physically building muscle strength, right? Like you have to do continuous reps and increase your weight, right? And it's like, literally, you're building that muscle, that muscle of being able to recognize that there's a failure possibility, and that you feel like it's a strong possibility, and then going and doing it anyway. And seeing that, yeah, that thing didn't happen. So it sounds like that's probably a contributing factor to how you have moved past imposter syndrome. 

Emily-Rose Barry  27:09  

Yes, that's one. I think, another one, it's very similar, as I was saying, in the beginning of our conversation about the tools that you use to get over anxiety, which is shifting your thinking as much as possible to like, objective, measurable, tangible facts about what's happening, as opposed to spinning out in your head about imaginary things that aren't real. So if I think, oh, my gosh, you know, they're offering me this promotion, and there's no way I can do it, and they're insane for offering it to me. Okay, that's like an idea that I have, it's, it's a thought, but how based in reality is that let's look at like if I can put myself in their shoes and see like, what are the metrics I have in front of me about my own performance? Well, I've had a positive performance review, every single year, every year, I get XYZ feedback that I'm doing these things great. And those things actually do align really well with what this role wants. So I don't know maybe they've got something there. Like if you can take yourself out of it, of thinking about, I guess, too internalized to internalize and to personalized, and try and pull yourself out of the situation and just look at it objectively, and take account of all the facts that are in front of you, what you're probably going to find is that the facts show everything's going fine. Unless you are getting consistently negative feedback, and you are not addressing that feedback, and you're not growing and you're not improving. You're not being asked, you know, to go on a performance improvement plan, why would you think that things are going so bad that you're probably going to lose your job, it's just that you're you're entering your own imaginary ideas in where they they really have no place. And they're hard to let go of, but focusing as much on what's going on in front of you is really, really going to help. It's similar to you know, if you're having a panic attack, they say, You should look around, you should observe the things around you just like name the things around you. I'm looking at the grass right now I'm hearing this sound just to ground you in reality get you out of your headspace. It's the exact same thing for me with imposter syndrome.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  29:21  

Yeah, well, the word that kept coming up, as you were saying that was data. So it's like looking at the data that you have on yourself, rather than all of the subjective judgments that you make about the data...

Emily-Rose Barry  29:35  

Judgment! Yes, that's the word. You are judging yourself and no one else is judging you. What a wild thing to do to yourself, right? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  29:44  

That we all do! So I read this article, it was an interesting article kind of strange, but it talked about, like why we all punished our Barbies. Like why that's such a common thing for kids who were playing with Barbies to punish them. And they said, "It turns out that Barbie was just the first name I gave the lifelong project of punishing myself with the imagined perfection of others." And the reason I thought of that quote is because we kind of like have judgments of ourselves that are so negative, and then we look outward. And we have judgments of others that are so positive, right? Like we just assume that everybody else's lives are perfect, and that everybody else is sitting there judging us for like, what we believe that like for what we see about ourselves. But meanwhile, if we look at the data, most likely what's happening is exactly the opposite. They're sitting there judging themselves negatively, just like we are and they're looking at us thinking, Oh, my gosh, they're so perfect!

Emily-Rose Barry  30:47  

Exactly! Yeah, oh, my gosh, yeah, we're all what a totally dysfunctional...

Leanna Laskey McGrath  30:53  

We're all doing it!

Emily-Rose Barry  30:54  

society we've come up with. Yes, yes. Yeah, that is the reality. No, everyone's worried about themselves, they're not worried about you. One other thing that really worries me about imposter syndrome with women specifically, I'm trying so hard not to generalize here, because gender is a spectrum. And I don't want to paint with broad strokes, like a lot of what I'm saying about my observations of gender are very based in my experience, but my concern about women with imposter syndrome is that we know that everyone experiences it, but I've, I personally have never heard a man talk about it. And I know you have because you work in coaching, right. And so that's kind of like that safe space where people can be open and say, This is what I'm struggling with. But like in everyday life, I've just have personally never heard a man say they haven't. What I worry about is that women are so afraid of seeming like egotistical bitches, who are too ambitious and too aggressive, and like too much trying to claw their way up the org chart, all of those things that even in moments where we feel, you know what, I totally deserved, that. This was the opportunity I wanted for myself, I worked really hard to get it, I manifested this, and it came true. Good for me! We're so afraid of just saying that, that even when we feel that way, we feel like every success we have, we have to kind of like put an asterisk at the end and make it seem like, oh, I don't even know why I got like, you know, like, Oh, little old me?! I'm so undeserving. And it's like, not how you really feel, but you feel like you have to say it, like you've got to temper your own successes with some idea that like, it wasn't what you deserved. And that freaks me out way more than all of the times that, you know, you really are feeling that deep sense of like, oh my God, I don't I don't know if I deserve that. Like, there's a ton of that that is based in reality. And then there's times where we kind of toss the phrase around, because we want to seem humble. And I do not like that. I worry about that. And I'm saying I've had the tendency to do that myself. Like, as I've gotten older and gotten, you know, further along in my career, and I get, you know, an opportunity, a new job, a promotion, I might feel like a sense of like, I don't want people to like judge me for getting this. So I'm just gonna be like, wow, it was such a surprise. And you know, I can't believe that they're, they're letting me do this. I have to hold myself back and say, You know what, that's actually not helpful to any of us to be saying stuff like that. It doesn't help all the women who are really, really struggling with their own sense of confidence and imposter syndrome, to toss it around when it's irrelevant. Yeah. So that's another thing. Once I made that realization, I was like, oh, I need to really check myself like, especially now like, I'm a vice president, like I, by all accounts, going back to what you were saying earlier about, like, people tend to judge other people and say, Oh, they've got it all figured out, and everything's good. I am positive that I'm that person for somebody I know I am. Because when I was early in my career, I can think of a few people like, honestly do anonyme were like those people for me, you know, like, Oh, they got it all figured out. Look at them, like their vice presidents, right? So I worry about the responsibility that I have to project to other women. Like, actually, I worked hard for something. And I know that I'm good at this. And I deserve to be in this role. And I'm really not going to feel bad about it. Yeah. And not to bring up Barbie movie, but that's what I was thinking. When I saw it the other night, that moment where somebody got the Nobel Prize or whatever, and they're like, I worked really hard and deserve this. I'm like, yes, yes, Queen actually guess that's how we should be talking about it. Unless we really are feeling that sense of self doubt, you know, which, which is also real.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  34:55  

Yeah, and I think a lot of that has to do with our socialization and the X lactation that women are humble, we tend to in the negotiation research, it actually shows that women who, like push harder and negotiate harder for themselves are viewed more negatively. Whereas men who push harder for themselves are more respected. So you're doing the exact same thing. And you get a totally different result. I think about just the day to day things, because you know, that happens a lot more often than like getting a promotion or the Nobel Prize, but the day to day just a compliment, that whenever someone says, even just like a physical compliment, your hair looks great. What what is our natural reaction? First, I don't like there's often a feeling of discomfort, right? And then like, I have to say something to like, downplay it almost. Right. Like, the most logical answer is just like, Thank you, like, someone noticed something nice. Right? But like, we have all this, like internal stuff going on. And a lot of times, it could be like, I mean, even with our hair, like, oh, yeah, I'm having a really good hair day, right? Like, we're gonna chalk it up to chance. We're gonna lay right, we've got to kind of downplay it in a way. But like, it would be not viewed very favorably, if we said, Yeah, I was born with great hair. Right? Or like something. Something that's like, yeah, I recognize that to about myself. And here's why. Right? That's just no I am. Yeah, exactly. 

Emily-Rose Barry  36:25  

It sounded so weird in the Barbie movie. Every time someone did that, you know, and it did make me think back of like, Oh, why does that sound so weird when you know, someone gives a compliment? And they're just like, Yes, I know. Like, oh, but don't say that.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  36:37  

Right. But why, but why? What's the benefit of being great if you don't know it yourself? If only other people see it? Right? Yeah. So I mean, when you if it goes into the workplace, and you get a promotion, and someone says congratulations, right? Like, you start to have stuff going on? And you're like, oh, yeah, like, right, like, you want to say like, I'm so glad they gave this to me, or like, I'm so excited to have this opportunity. Or something about luck, maybe, right. But we aren't going to say I worked my ass off and I deserved right, because like, that's just not acceptable. But that is true. I think it should just be able to speak the truth.

Emily-Rose Barry  37:14  

And actually, that would be the more helpful thing for someone to hear. Yeah, because they're probably thinking when they're congratulating you, God, how do I get something like that? Or like, I really want to be in that position they need to hear I worked really hard. And I developed this skill. And I went through XYZ things so that I could demonstrate that I can handle this type of situation. Like that's a path someone can walk down, versus Oh, the universe handed me something that I didn't deserve. Like, what is anyone supposed to do with that? That doesn't help anybody. And I definitely did not get that perspective until really recently, like in the past few years, but it was like a switch that flipped in my head, where I was like, Oh, God, actually, I can be very damaging, particularly to other women in their careers and their own self development. If I act like I don't think I know what I'm doing, because I've had enough experience of like the practice of looking at, you know, all the things I've talked about already. I look at the data, I asked for feedback regularly. I think that's important, too, right? You might not be in a situation where people are giving you feedback all the time. But I think I've recognized enough about myself, like I really do start to spiral if I don't know if things are going well. And so if I haven't gotten a quick, hey, by the way, you're doing really great with this recently, like, I will just ask people like, how's it going? You know?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  38:48  

Yeah, yeah, that takes some bravery in itself. Because if you think about when you were a younger professional, you said you were kind of spiral ever. You weren't getting feedback. And you could have done that then. Right. Right. Like you could have asked at any point. Yeah. But like earlier in our careers, I mean, it does take a little bit of confidence, because I think we create this like, oh, well, they're not saying anything, like maybe they don't know, notice that I'm not qualified, like made right. And so it's kind of like if I bring it up, then I'm going to invite them to think about it and then what if they realize like what if they realize that actually I'm not doing a great job,

Emily-Rose Barry  39:27  

Right, right. Or is it going to open up a can of worms have like feedback that I'm not ready to receive? That's really the risk right? It's it never feels good to, you know, go about your life like to do everything's fine. And then like, be hit with like, oh, actually, this is how this way you're working or acting or produce or whatever it might be is being perceived. And here's how it could be improved. Like, oh, like that doesn't feel good. Nobody wants to sign up for that. But not having it voiced not having it like a concrete thing that's like out there. Now just opens up room for you to catastrophize in your head. Yeah, that's been my experience, right?

Leanna Laskey McGrath  40:06  

Yeah. Well, no, I think it's like, if it's not stated like you've already thought it because you've already thought, yes. All of the worst possible things about yourself. Right, right. So moving through imposter syndrome, I heard you say exposure and kind of building the muscles, I heard you talking about shifting your thinking, focusing on the objective data, asking for feedback regularly. Is there anything else that you would like to share? Any other advice or takeaways that you have that would help folks with this imposter syndrome?

Emily-Rose Barry  40:40  

I think the biggest thing I would say, if you are dealing with imposter syndrome that you need to do is you need to get out of your own head and have conversations. So the worst thing you could do is just sit and spin your wheels and catastrophize. Because an anxious brain left to its own devices can come up with a lot of different terrible scenarios, and it's really self perpetuating. But as soon as you can sit down with a trusted friend or family member, mentor, roommate, partner, person on the street therapists like any that you can say, Hey, these are the feelings that I'm having. And I need to help you help me, I am wondering how based in reality, these fears are, can you reflect back to me? Like, what are the things that you see that might counteract the ideas I have? In my head, I think it's really important to open up and have conversations with other people, but also, like, direct them in the place that you need them to go. Because getting to that data and getting someone to kind of like put the mirror up and say, Actually, this is what's really happening. Do you think it could be equally possible that you totally deserve this and you worked really hard, and you're going to do great at it, that is the kind of thing that you need to counteract what you're going through. So kind of like opening up the conversation, but also directing it into a direction that is going to be the most constructive for you, I think, is the best thing that you can do. Yeah, because what's not going to happen is you're not going to sit down with that trusted person, and they're gonna say, Wow, I totally get why you feel that way you suck my experience, but with you has been that you're pretty bad at your job, and you probably didn't deserve this, like that is not going to happen. So it's really going to help you to kind of like hear that totally opposite perspective thrown back at you as an equally valid version of reality that you can rely on.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  42:35  

Yeah, I would agree with that. I would also, I mean, even just saying it out loud. A lot of times when someone walks me through and a question I often ask is like, what's the worst case scenario here that you've come up with and saying it out loud? You find them start saying like, Oh, that doesn't make sense. Oh, that's kind of that's kind of Farfetch. Okay. That's not actually an habit. It's just, I mean, even if you just like, talk to the wall, you just like, say it out loud. It's, or write it down. If you're, if you like to write, I think that's a really great way to write it down and then read it back. And then kind of start to question your brain like, hey, brain, like, I know, you came up with that, it seems quite unlikely. Yeah, that's gonna happen.

Emily-Rose Barry  43:21  

Yep. And then the other button is just to give yourself as much kindness and grace as you would give anybody else. We're nastier to ourselves than we are to other people sometimes. And so picture, the situation reversed, where you've got a colleague or a friend who's saying, I'm really worried that I'm not good enough. You would respond with such love and kindness to them, and you should respond the same way to yourself. That's my other piece of advice. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  43:46  

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a fun conversation. And I think it's gonna be very helpful for a lot of people listening. So thank you for sharing your experiences. Emily-Rose, and thanks for being here.

Emily-Rose Barry  43:59  

Thanks for inviting me, Leanna!

Leanna Laskey McGrath  44:00  

All right. Thanks, everyone! Hope everyone has a great week. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  44:05  

Thanks so much for tuning in to the executive coach for moms podcast. Please like, subscribe or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care

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